Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex

I'd say it's looking like a complete rework as promised. I think most players will be very happy with the changes. Unfortunately for me it doesn't look like my particular hopes will come true. WWP looks pretty dead, now that they've removed reroll charges from the PfP table. Advance and charge is certainly much, much better for units in transports and that is what the larger community was hoping for. PfP being lost with any non-Drukhari units in the army also hits me hard- but that just means I'll need to build/paint about 500 points to get my army back up to 2000. Monofaction is probably a necessary route to take for balance, but I'm staring at the support weapons I was assembling on my desk with disappointment. I also wanted to get a wraithseer, oh well. Ynnari is unusable as currently written.

What I am very happy for is the flexibility offered in smaller games. Now I can take beasts in a coven detachment, or try out a wych cult with a cronos. Master HQ characters and their upgraded retinues also sounds fantastic. Lowering the durability on coven units was necessary, but I'm sure there will be some reason that the turn 1 and turn 4 invulnerable save matters for them. I'm also pulling for coven getting +1 to invulnerable saves- put them all at the same durability and then let the obsessions change the playstyle rather than having a clear choice PoF obsession.

I'm really looking forward to the full rules- I don't know what to build next!

sekac wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

sekac wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I’m not sold. Does that mean you’d expect vehicles to have a 4+ invulnerable save by battle round 4?

I actually think we are being made less durable.

I love your impression of pfp pain and I agree, we should be able to withstand the minor damage but fold from major damage...but they have actually made it go the other way. The benefit to a Kabalite of swapping 6+++ for 6++ is that now we have a better chance of surviving high damage weapons than before but a lower chance of surviving mass low damage weapons. The 4+ save does mitigate this somewhat mind.

The idea that GW looked at the army and decided we're too tough just doesn't seem realistic to me.

Having turn 1 PfP going from "somewhat useful" as it currently is, to "absolutely useless" in many cases, also doesn't seem realistic.  Giving kabalite warriors, for instance +1 armor save and a 6++, will often be completely redundant.

Giving the whole army the 6++ that wyches have from their heightened reflexes makes sense. Removing our signature racial ability does not.

Well I can only go on what we’ve all seen so far today. We have lost the 6+++ and gained a 6++.

Who’s to say they haven’t just slightly turned things around. Perhaps Wracks will now have no save at all. Maybe they get the 6++ from pfp and an ignore wounds on 5+ ability.

Sometimes these changes feel like they have a bigger impact than we realise. I’d like to see how many Bolter hits it takes to kill 10 Kabalites when comparing 8th to 9th.

Of course we can only go on what we see. That's why I used words like hunch, speculation, and theory. But we can also assume we will have a racial special ability just like every other army in the game.

9th seems to be moving towards one rule as the game progresses, provided all units are mono-faction (Combat Doctrines, Contagions, Command Protocols, PfP). And all armies have built in racial abilities (Bolter Discipline/Shock Assault, Disgustingly Resilient, Reanimation Protocols, ???).

So why would you assume they've decided to deviate from that pattern, simply because they haven't revealed what our ability is yet?

I think it's a given that we will have a racial ability. Our ability to resist pain is our signature element that makes us distinct from other Aeldari.

Get a grip. I haven’t assumed a thing. My personal opinion is that no we won’t have 4+ 6++ 6+++ Kabs. I’m sorry if that opinion irks you but I’m not writing the rules.

We have power from pain that is a DE race rule and we have obsessions as well as drugs for a fair few units. If there’s more then great.

What I don’t get is why GW would keep the same name for turn one pfp but change the rule only to then add the original rule under a different name as a race rule. Sorry but it makes no sense to me, but then it doesn’t have to make sense to happen.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

Get a grip. I haven’t assumed a thing. My personal opinion is that no we won’t have 4+ 6++ 6+++ Kabs. I’m sorry if that opinion irks you but I’m not writing the rules.

We have power from pain that is a DE race rule and we have obsessions as well as drugs for a fair few units. If there’s more then great.

What I don’t get is why GW would keep the same name for turn one pfp but change the rule only to then add the original rule under a different name as a race rule. Sorry but it makes no sense to me, but then it doesn’t have to make sense to happen.

What? I'm telling you we can assume we'll have a racial special ability. You know, because every army does? Every army has an equivalent of obsessions too. Combat drugs are a wych cult thing, not a racial ability. Why would GW arbitrarily break the pattern they're establishing 4 codexes into the edition?

The progressive ability (PfP for us) typically applies to everything in the codex, but only if taken mono-faction. The racial ability doesn't usually apply to everything, but often applies to many units and doesn't need to be mono-faction to apply.

A space marine is highly trained in the use of a bolter and in CC. That doesn't change if he's by himself. However, if it is only space marines, their training allows them to use their combat doctrines. Imperial guard allies will just fill the comms with useless noise.

A plague marine is disgustingly resilient whether by himself or in great numbers. But in great numbers, the aura of decay has a corrosive effect on their enemies.

A necron is built to self-repair but they lack dynamic thinking and initiative. If taken in great numbers and properly lead, their robotic efficiency is lethal.

A drukhari is used to pain, wearing armor with hooks and spikes on the inside, just to make sure they're in pain every day. But they don't power up from it unless there is enough of them, collectively feeding on the pain and anguish that goes along with large scale battles.

The logic that Dark Eldar are no longer resistant to pain just because a harlequin is standing nearby just doesn't hold up.

Re-writing the mono-faction ability to also benefit vehicles makes total sense. Their crews feel the power too, gaining faster reactions and a greater resistance to the g-force of aerial combat. However, it wouldn't make sense for vehicles to be resistant to pain, because pain isn't what stops the vehicle from operating, structural damage does.

Therefore moving feel no pain from PfP chart and into the racial ability makes sense. I mean, the rule could literally be called "Feel No Pain" again, as it previously was. Every similar rule had the same name (same for deep strike) until 8th edition, when thy decided to give the same rule different names for different factions. I wouldn't bet on GW dogmatically adhering to arbitrarily named rules, since they never ever have.

IMO:

Pros:

1) advance + charge is army wide (red grief obsession probably changed to give reroll charges)
2) 2+ BS trueborn that ignore debuffs
3) Poisoned Tongue debuffs attrition tests (Woot!)
4) assuming that our current drugs remain the same, Combat Drugs got waaaaay better
5) Djinn blade damage bumped to flat 3 - more flat damage above 1 is always better and I'm happy that they maxed out the 1d3 variable roll

Cons:

1) Soup is super dead - RIP Craftworld/DE soup list
2) Master Archon feels underwhelming - likely to be our Supreme Commander option (if we get one)

All that said, I think it's a net positive. I'm looking forward to the Codex.

It wont be Supreme Command, its like the Chapter Master upgrades that all armies are getting, pay 25-40pts to get extra rules.

I'm still being cautiously neutral in my stance.

But damn, now it seems like they actually tried to do something of mix-up of our rules. Not just the bare minimum damage update to weapons. No Idea where it lands over all but I do love that advance and charge. I will actually play Wych cult more now. That alone is a large mark in my book. Also Yay! for Poisoned Tongue, my preferred flavor, being more viable. Another large mark. Tired of running Black Heart as default.

Now I excuse myself, as I go to drown this nascent hope in its cradle before it inevitably betrays me.

I actually like Realspace Raiders detachment.

Things you are getting if you take this over 3 patrols - Archon aura will work on every core unit, not just Kabal. You could select relics from all 3 subfactions, not just Kabal. You get to fill slots however you see fit, for example 3 slots in heavy from Coven, 3 fast attack slots from Cult, etc. You will have obsession for all 3 parts of the army (you will have obsession even if you go 3 patrols).

Things you are not getting - everything else. No free relics, no free warlord traits, all other restrictions still apply. You wont have Coven relics for Archon, because those relics have restrictions in them for only Haemunculus for example, and Kabal will not have Coven obsession for example, because of similiar reason.

Biggest pros:
Can fill slots with multiple non troop choices from kabal/cult/coven, like 3 taloses, entire fast attack from cults etc. Sadly cant take more then 2 flyers in battalion.

Biggest cons:
Restriction in taking single great model - Drazhar. That is kinda lame, if he is still fully fledged HQ choice, he cant be taken in battalion, because all 3 slots will be filled. Everything else can go in there, Lelith, Urien etc. Also if you want to take 3+ Flyers, you will need to go Patrols.

P.S. I dreamed that they maybe maybe give rules for Broken Sigil Kabal, with focus on morale damage. Given that they are always on all books as major kabals and are on a decal sheet. But thats maybe asking too much. Hope that at least custom kabal trats stays.

Azdrubael wrote:

I actually like Realspace Raiders detachment.

Things you are getting if you take this over 3 patrols - Archon aura will work on every core unit, not just Kabal. You could select relics from all 3 subfactions, not just Kabal. You get to fill slots however you see fit, for example 3 slots in heavy from Coven, 3 fast attack slots from Cult, etc. You will have obsession for all 3 parts of the army (you will have obsession even if you go 3 patrols).

Things you are not getting - everything else. No free relics, no free warlord traits, all other restrictions still apply. You wont have Coven relics for Archon, because those relics have restrictions in them for only Haemunculus for example, and Kabal will not have Coven obsession for example, because of similiar reason.

Biggest cons:
Restriction in taking single great model - Drazhar. That is kinda lame, if he is still fully fledged HQ choice, he cant be taken in battalion, because all 3 slots will be filled. Everything else can go in there, Lelith, Urien etc. Also if you want to take 3+ Flyers, you will need to go Patrols.

Time to bring in a Brigade!

I feel like the Brigade will be interesting: Some sweet cherry picking with units + obsession.

I’m also a bit bummed about not being able to take Drahzar in a battalion raiding party. 3 patrols are just as easy mind. It just means you can’t have the army wide re rolls from the Archon.

I have been thinking about Raiders and I dont think I am as down on it as I was now that I have slept on it.

I was bummed that they basically denied me being able to create a battalion with just Kabal and Coven, but thinking about what I want to take, honestly, all I lose is the Warlord rerolls on everyone. Archons themselves might still have it for Kabal, and Succis might still have it for Cult, so I might not even have lost out much.

If I were able to construct a Kabal/Cult bat, I would be looking to bring 20 kabalites and 10 wyches anyway, as well as ravagers, beasts, reavers, and potentially both a razorwing and a squad of scourges.

That already fulfils at least 2 patrols, usually 3. The only other downside is needing a second Archon, when the points could be better spent for something else (a squad of incubi/mandrakes, or a transport for the succi), but equally, the second archon could be replaced with Drahzar if I wanted.

Points are interestingly tight at 2000.

At first glance, aside from the advance and charge, our PFP list seems a bit lacking.
In almost all cases, the 6+ Feel No Pain from last edition will be better than the 6+ invul this edition for our troops.

Take the humble Wych model.

In this edition, they have a 6+ invul and a 6+ feel no pain.

In the new edition, they have a 6+ invul and that is it. It is worse for the wych in almost every conceivable way.
Warriors go from a 5+ save with a 6+ feel no pain to a 4+ save. If the weapon has a high AP, they get a 6+ save.
Pretty much worse for the warrior in most ways except multiple wound high ap weapons.
Wracks went from a 5+(or 4+ pof) invul with a 6+ fnp to a 6+ invul, no feel no pain.
This is worse in every way.
Now I realize other factors may come into play here. but we are only going with what we know now (which admittedly is not a lot)

Take the Raider transport.
In this edition, they have a4+ save and a 5+ invulnerable, and lets assume you took Flayed skull because it is hands down better than black heart, so no feel no pain.
In the new edition, they have a 4+ save with a 6+ invulnerable.
But wait... that invul works against hand to hand attacks as well!
and in turn 4, it is a 5+ invul.

How many times has your venom or raider been hit with a hand to hand weapon that ignores your save? Pretty much all the time... a freaking POWER SWORD equals no save for your vehicle... until now.
So I would argue it may be better for vehicles, even giving up the 1 point of invul save for three rounds.

We just need more freaking info.  
I am tired of getting hopeful, then really reading the rules, getting depressed, then thinking about it some more to get hopeful again.

Yep totally agree it’s going to be very interesting to see what they have done with transports saves, wracks in general and Wyches. Also bear in mind Kabalites on turn 4 will have a 4+ 5++ save.

Rather than look too closely at the rules in isolation, I’m just thinking so far from what I’ve seen, I’m looking forward to seeing this whole codex. That’s a nice place to be after just one day of reveals.

Still not feeling the Master Archon.

Not only is fight twice (1/battle, at that) almost the opposite of what their role should be, we've already got *at least* one model with that shtick.

Would it really have been too much to ask for a Master Archon to have something that actually reflected his skills as a commander and strategist?


Also, I notice from Realspace Raiders that we're using 'Core'. So I look forward to aura buffing our basic troops and naff-all else. Because God knows our codex wasn't bogged down with enough stupid keywords already.

Skulnbonz wrote:

Take the Raider transport.
In this edition, they have a4+ save and a 5+ invulnerable, and lets assume you took Flayed skull because it is hands down better than black heart, so no feel no pain.
In the new edition, they have a 4+ save with a 6+ invulnerable.
But wait... that invul works against hand to hand attacks as well!
and in turn 4, it is a 5+ invul.

How many times has your venom or raider been hit with a hand to hand weapon that ignores your save? Pretty much all the time... a freaking POWER SWORD equals no save for your vehicle... until now.
So I would argue it may be better for vehicles, even giving up the 1 point of invul save for three rounds.

I'll have to disagree with this. IMO that 5++ against ranged attacks is far more important than a 6++ that works against melee as well. Especially in the early game, given that melee can usually be evaded but shooting is almost impossible to avoid.

I think our vehicles will have taken a massive hit to durability and longevity if they've lost their 5++ save against shooting.

Fnp 6+ was HUGE on veichles, hands down. On 10 wounds Raider, having Fnp 6+ means basically have nearly +2 wounds.
It was like playing Venoms with 7 wounds and Raiders with nearly 12 wounds.

Yes, we're going to loose much toughness than we can expect.


BUT...
If you're playing 9th in a competitive setting, then you'll know how much tables are full of obscuring LoS blocking sceneries. Being much faster (T2 pfp which works on veichles too) it's more important than being more durable now, because you already have the table that helps you a lot. If you're fast enough to jink between obscuring sceneries you care less about being soft.
Expecially if you're going to hit hard as it seems (I still use Incubi right now, I can't wait to play those new shiny profiles! They just chow up everything).

Basically I like the idea of having long range shooting (Venoms too right now), and then have a charge potential of 3"+movement+D6+2D6. It"s a LOT of an INFANTRY model (who can trespass obsuring with no penalties). Basically you can stay in Blos and then disembark+charge wherever you want.
Tables in 9th helps us a lot, in a game changer way definitely. So ok, feel free to take 6+++ from me, in change of fastness and killyness.

Way more tactical. Way more Drukhari-ish style.

Cerve wrote:

Fnp 6+ was HUGE on veichles, hands down. On 10 wounds Raider, having Fnp 6+ means basically have nearly +2 wounds.
It was like playing Venoms with 7 wounds and Raiders with nearly 12 wounds.

Yes, we're going to loose much toughness than we can expect.


BUT...
If you're playing 9th in a competitive setting, then you'll know how much tables are full of obscuring LoS blocking sceneries. Being much faster (T2 pfp which works on veichles too) it's more important than being more durable now, because you already have the table that helps you a lot. If you're fast enough to jink between obscuring sceneries you care less about being soft.
Expecially if you're going to hit hard as it seems (I still use Incubi right now, I can't wait to play those new shiny profiles! They just chow up everything).

Basically I like the idea of having long range shooting (Venoms too right now), and then have a charge potential of 3"+movement+D6+2D6. It"s a LOT of an INFANTRY model (who can trespass obsuring with no penalties). Basically you can stay in Blos and then disembark+charge wherever you want.
Tables in 9th helps us a lot, in a game changer way definitely. So ok, feel free to take 6+++ from me, in change of fastness and killyness.

Way more tactical. Way more Drukhari-ish style.

FNP didnt apply to raiders. Raiders did not have PFP as an ability.

Also, if you play 9th with typical scenery, you also know that Raiders are nearly impossible to hid. They have to be some of the largest models its possible to field, right? Spiky bits everywhere. My friends and I have taken to saying some bits of terrain are infinitely high, because otherwise my raiders stick out over the top of even fairly large pieces.

A lot of crying here about loss of FNP...We didnt have it from our inception until 2010 and I thought it was lazy when it came out. FNP is a 5th edition crutch. Why did we have the same rule as 5th edition death guard?

you know what sucks for dark eldar? Getting caught in the open. you know what could possibly save you if your transport goes up and you are in the open? thats right an invuln...

Personally I would have liked to see it 5++ from turn 1 and then get another rule turn4...Maybe always attack 1st my favorite drug of all time from the 3.5 dex (It was not my favorite drug i just always rolled 4, until i was up against harliquinns with the old dex)

albions-angel wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Fnp 6+ was HUGE on veichles, hands down. On 10 wounds Raider, having Fnp 6+ means basically have nearly +2 wounds.
It was like playing Venoms with 7 wounds and Raiders with nearly 12 wounds.

Yes, we're going to loose much toughness than we can expect.


BUT...
If you're playing 9th in a competitive setting, then you'll know how much tables are full of obscuring LoS blocking sceneries. Being much faster (T2 pfp which works on veichles too) it's more important than being more durable now, because you already have the table that helps you a lot. If you're fast enough to jink between obscuring sceneries you care less about being soft.
Expecially if you're going to hit hard as it seems (I still use Incubi right now, I can't wait to play those new shiny profiles! They just chow up everything).

Basically I like the idea of having long range shooting (Venoms too right now), and then have a charge potential of 3"+movement+D6+2D6. It"s a LOT of an INFANTRY model (who can trespass obsuring with no penalties). Basically you can stay in Blos and then disembark+charge wherever you want.
Tables in 9th helps us a lot, in a game changer way definitely. So ok, feel free to take 6+++ from me, in change of fastness and killyness.

Way more tactical. Way more Drukhari-ish style.

FNP didnt apply to raiders. Raiders did not have PFP as an ability.

Black Heart Obsession

Cerve wrote:

albions-angel wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Fnp 6+ was HUGE on veichles, hands down. On 10 wounds Raider, having Fnp 6+ means basically have nearly +2 wounds.
It was like playing Venoms with 7 wounds and Raiders with nearly 12 wounds.

Yes, we're going to loose much toughness than we can expect.


BUT...
If you're playing 9th in a competitive setting, then you'll know how much tables are full of obscuring LoS blocking sceneries. Being much faster (T2 pfp which works on veichles too) it's more important than being more durable now, because you already have the table that helps you a lot. If you're fast enough to jink between obscuring sceneries you care less about being soft.
Expecially if you're going to hit hard as it seems (I still use Incubi right now, I can't wait to play those new shiny profiles! They just chow up everything).

Basically I like the idea of having long range shooting (Venoms too right now), and then have a charge potential of 3"+movement+D6+2D6. It"s a LOT of an INFANTRY model (who can trespass obsuring with no penalties). Basically you can stay in Blos and then disembark+charge wherever you want.
Tables in 9th helps us a lot, in a game changer way definitely. So ok, feel free to take 6+++ from me, in change of fastness and killyness.

Way more tactical. Way more Drukhari-ish style.

FNP didnt apply to raiders. Raiders did not have PFP as an ability.

Black Heart Obsession

Eh, black heart began to fall out of favour. It was still strong after the Agents nerf in 8th, but 9ths changes to cover and stacking saves made Flayed Skull really, really competitive. But you are right, I often forgot that bit of Black Heart.

albions-angel wrote:

Cerve wrote:

albions-angel wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Fnp 6+ was HUGE on veichles, hands down. On 10 wounds Raider, having Fnp 6+ means basically have nearly +2 wounds.
It was like playing Venoms with 7 wounds and Raiders with nearly 12 wounds.

Yes, we're going to loose much toughness than we can expect.


BUT...
If you're playing 9th in a competitive setting, then you'll know how much tables are full of obscuring LoS blocking sceneries. Being much faster (T2 pfp which works on veichles too) it's more important than being more durable now, because you already have the table that helps you a lot. If you're fast enough to jink between obscuring sceneries you care less about being soft.
Expecially if you're going to hit hard as it seems (I still use Incubi right now, I can't wait to play those new shiny profiles! They just chow up everything).

Basically I like the idea of having long range shooting (Venoms too right now), and then have a charge potential of 3"+movement+D6+2D6. It"s a LOT of an INFANTRY model (who can trespass obsuring with no penalties). Basically you can stay in Blos and then disembark+charge wherever you want.
Tables in 9th helps us a lot, in a game changer way definitely. So ok, feel free to take 6+++ from me, in change of fastness and killyness.

Way more tactical. Way more Drukhari-ish style.

FNP didnt apply to raiders. Raiders did not have PFP as an ability.

Black Heart Obsession

Eh, black heart began to fall out of favour. It was still strong after the Agents nerf in 8th, but 9ths changes to cover and stacking saves made Flayed Skull really, really competitive. But you are right, I often forgot that bit of Black Heart.

Mmm not really. In 9th there's only DarkTecnomancers VenomSpam + a BH Patrol for Vect.
I like Flayed Skulls, but never seen it on reports unfortunately.

I like the things I have seen so far in the latest reveal. As much as it pains me to say it.

The ultimate test, though, for this release is, will GW manage to make Hellions playable?

I guess we can agree that coven units will have different rules that translate into durability, either FnP or others, but I guess it won't be just an Invulnerable save... UNLESS like in previous editions they just count as already bringing some pain from home (+something on the PfP table or similar), which wouldn't be so bad (talos get better earlier in battle).

Also, supreme Archon giving rerolls to all core units, independently of sub-faction, hmmm...

If i understood well, if we use only patrol detachment, all of this cost 0, and we gain +2CP for the warlod detachment. before edition we regain all cost of detachment +2 for warlord and 4 for having 3 patrolls, but this time we Gain 2CP. very stron on 1k games with 5 CP opposite 3CP as usual.

albions-angel wrote:

Also, if you play 9th with typical scenery, you also know that Raiders are nearly impossible to hid. They have to be some of the largest models its possible to field, right? Spiky bits everywhere. My friends and I have taken to saying some bits of terrain are infinitely high, because otherwise my raiders stick out over the top of even fairly large pieces.

In 9th edition, any terrain piece that is 5" high and has the "obscuring" rule (ruins and LoS blocking terrain) counts as infinitely high. It has never been easier to hide raiders.

Scrz wrote:

I like the things I have seen so far in the latest reveal. As much as it pains me to say it.

The ultimate test, though, for this release is, will GW manage to make Hellions playable?

Somebody just won a large tournament with a list featuring Hellions, so job done already!

amishprn86 wrote:

It wont be Supreme Command, its like the Chapter Master upgrades that all armies are getting, pay 25-40pts to get extra rules.

except necrons who have to pay 2cp lol