6th Ed rumors and DE

nightfighting will be really good for us maybe... we will ignore it for our shooting, but if the 2+ save at >18" is true, then our jink saves will be awesome... 3+ for all vehicles, too good to be true.

I think with the new rules the Voidraven will be tougher than the ravager (by a lot, maybe even by the 40 points difference), quicker and better able to screw certain things. I am certainly planning to replace my ravagers with them (I wanted planes anyways). Also I'll be using a razorwing. I'll wait and see what the meta does to make up my mind in regards to 2 ravens and a razor or vice versa.

I'm just sad because I might have to forsake my wyches. I dearly hope I don't, because I love wyches so freaking much. They are pretty and cool.

the void mine is interesting now IMHO... it is full strength now, and with a d6 scatter only could be powerful if used in the right situations.

but as Sorrow said we need to playtest the voidraven and see if those extra points put into it really help it over the ravager

with the new rules, I can see voidraven killing 2 vehicles in 1 turn.. 1 with lances, even plus missiles, 1 with mine.

Furthermore, with the zooming rules it cant be charged, so you can go into the enemy deployment zone and place the mine more safely.

Why are Razorwing and Voidraven better than Ravagers? They will be harder to kill, and they will destroy flyers more easily. Vendettas and the like won't be a problem. But with ravagers they will be. Can you see now why there's a price increase for them???

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Essentially as it stands any of our units/characters get caught cold by termies are dead , the end.

Lelith might hold her ground.
She is the only special thing who just ignore armor saves.
Of course nothing of what i have read so far has indicated that her cost would be adequate.
We'l need to look at Challenge Mechanic. Basically she is the only thing that can kill 2+ in CC.

The Voidraven will strike with strenght 9. If I remember well, with the new ID rules he is the only one in the army that can one-shot IC or Tyranides warriors (maybe I have already said that, don't remember, sorry if so, I get old haha).
I believe in this ship! with the Razorwing they are matching very well to eliminate any kind of threat so it seems to be a good add to DE, and their price is more understandable.

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. If I remember well, with the new ID rules

ID remains the same. YOu're quoting fakebook.

Argh, sorry then.

First post i made in this forum and it's already a complain! A nice way to introduce myself!!!

I've read all the rumors so far and it seems that DE got the shaft in the 6th edition:
1 - Every cc power weapon is ap3. We can't kill enemy HQ or termies in cc it seems. Except Lelith... she ignores armor alltogether. No more wyches, incubi, tooled archons, succubus and so on. Even Vect or Drazhar will die against standard termies.
2 - That's makes shadowfield weaker than a terminator armor.
3 - Venoms, raider and ravagers 2 hull points, i want to laugh really. 2 glancing from bolters (now firing at 24) and we lost a ship...
4 - Fleet nerfed hard.
5 - Cannot disembark if the transport moves more than 6"
6 - Cannot contest or capture from embarked (paired with the one before, we are screwed)
7 - Allies everywhere, but we can only be bff with eldars. Worse than us only tyranids.
8 - Jink saves 5+ for skimmers. Flickerfield for everyone, but we paid for it on the venoms and we can't take it away in favor for night shields.
9 - FnP 5+ goodbye wracks and haemies. They just destroyed every melee unit we had.
10 - Furious charge lost the bonus initiative. Yay! Wracks and Haemie strike together with marines, another reason no to take them!

If i search more i think i will find other areas where we got nerfed. Is there any reason to continue playing DE competitively?

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3 - Venoms, raider and ravagers 2 hull points, i want to laugh really. 2 glancing from bolters (now firing at 24) and we lost a ship...

Whats the source? I had info that only Venoms and Planes HP2, Rav and Raider HP3.

My source said fast skimmers had 2 hp. But even if raiders and ravagers have 3hp... venoms dies ultrafast.

Well , Venom should die fast. No surprise here.

And Hull point does not defined by vehicle type, for example Vyper have 2, Wave Serpent have 3.

Venom already dies fast thanks to AV 10. Making it HP2 means it dies twice as fast as before (before glancing could kill a venom only 17% of the times, now it's 100 after the first glance).

I still think it's too early to assume all out ccws are foing to eb ap3. The rulebooks apparently gives examples of pwoer weapons that are ap2 (power axes, namely), so I wouldn't be suprised if some of our power weapons would be FAQd to ap2. I know GW favours Marines, but I don't think they'd go as far as to make every xeno army that isn't Orks (they have power klaws) unable to scratch termies. Would seem just stupid if none of our HQ choises can kill a basic terminator in combat.

My comments in green

First post i made in this forum and it's already a complain! A nice way to introduce myself!!!

I've read all the rumors so far and it seems that DE got the shaft in the 6th edition: Agreed
1 - Every cc power weapon is ap3. We can't kill enemy HQ or termies in cc it seems. Except Lelith... she ignores armor alltogether (yeah but shes too expensive and only averages 2 wounds per phase on MEq/teq, waste of time as she'll just take str 6+ to the face and go away).

No more wyches, incubi, tooled archons, succubus and so on. Even Vect or Drazhar will die against standard termies. yup and fail to reach things when you cant roll well enough, get minced with overwatch or get stranded and shot , with their new lower FNP save .... but haywires are better ....)i

will take them. wyches will rule now against vehicles, duelist archons will be good also (duelist archon can reliably kill anything now ? str 3 was a big enough handicap now he bounces of 2+ saves and pays through the ass for his worse save ?2 - That's makes shadowfield weaker than a terminator armor.
3 - Venoms, raider and ravagers 2 hull points, i want to laugh really. 2 glancing from bolters (now firing at 24) and we lost a ship... yup, wer'e going to get mutilated, you think psyfles/hydras ass cannons were bad before ... eve nat 30 points raiders would be a hard sell, not to mention plasma being all over the shop now (you can work that out for yourselves)venoms and flyers 2, the rest is 3 HP
4 - Fleet nerfed hard. yup and footdar will be torn apart by increased range rapid fire without a decent cover save or fnp save , nerf nerfy nerf nerf , personally I love the llok of a DE fleet , its that or nothing for me .
5 - Cannot disembark if the transport moves more than 6"
you move 6" after disembarking
6 - Cannot contest or capture from embarked (paired with the one before, we are screwed) yay, get out and die !
but you can overwatch with your warriors Also, why you complain if your transport would be wrecked anyway?? because it costs 60 points and carries some of the armies precious darklight ? it not priced as a throwaway vehicle .... it needs to do 'something' considering it can no longer deliver things accross the table properly ?
7 - Allies everywhere, but we can only be bff with eldars. Worse than us only tyranids.
we are one of very little number of armies who can benefit from Eldar psychic powers. GK have worse table, not BFF with anyone, yay so our book sucks so bad we need farseer crutches ? that makes me feel so much better ....)

8 - Jink saves 5+ for skimmers. Flickerfield for everyone, but we paid for it on the venoms and we can't take it away in favor for night shields. night sheilds are pointless anyway, people can premeasure now which just makes them worse than before (it was possible ?, who knew ?)

jink save get better with nightfight... and we will have it for free in all of our vehicles (cause night fight will be on reliably all the time ? very very limited use, though nice when it actually is dark, forget it if you are playing crons too)

9 - FnP 5+ goodbye wracks and haemies. They just destroyed every melee unit we had.
now we can make that 5+ even against powerweapons, ony S8 for wracks and S10 for grotees cancels it. better or worse? different , its worse most of the time as you are going to be taking str3-4 non pow wep hits most of the time, 5+ is a rubbish save vs mass hits, you should know this allready)especially with the ap on cc weps now, it's a nerf just not for marines ..... 10 - Furious charge lost the bonus initiative. Yay! Wracks and Haemie strike together with marines, another reason no to take them!are U sure of this? well liquifers being AP1D6 is a stronger reason now to take them Furios charge was nerfed ? yet another reason for me to not bother with Incubi ...
If i search more i think i will find other areas where we got nerfed. Is there any reason to continue playing DE competitively?

I think we only have 2 hopes:
1 - Lance buff. Unlikely but we can always hope
2 - Faqs that will help us in some way. Like flickerfield stacking with jink or every power weapon in the codex being ap 2.

The future is indeed grim.

Nomic wrote:

I still think it's too early to assume all out ccws are foing to eb ap3. The rulebooks apparently gives examples of pwoer weapons that are ap2 (power axes, namely), so I wouldn't be suprised if some of our power weapons would be FAQd to ap2. I know GW favours Marines, but I don't think they'd go as far as to make every xeno army that isn't Orks (they have power klaws) unable to scratch termies. Would seem just stupid if none of our HQ choises can kill a basic terminator in combat.

The codex says "unusual force weapon" = a force weapon with extra rules is ap3. We can safely assume that is the same with power weapons.

We can't kill termies, they pigeonholed the DE into shooting platforms. Just take as many raiders as you can, plus 2 ravagers and 1 voidraven with implosion to be safe against termies and paladins. Venoms aren't worth it anymore, as well as tooled archons (just take an extra blaster) and any melee unit. 1 ravager with dissies could be useful in the new meta maybe

Lances are the same afaik, only hope is for a benign FaQ (GW does not have a good track record with Xeno faq's)

Not just termies but anything with a 2+ save , to be fair our characters were a bit poop at fighting other IC's anyway, just no point in taking them at all , universally overpriced and underperforming . Bleurgh !

Venoms will still work, kill termies through saturation, no pont wasting darkmatter on 3++ saves is there ? take an allied farseer , doom the termies and shoot shoot shoot , and yes our cc ability is completely screwed.

Ereshkigal wrote:

I think we only have 2 hopes:
1 - Lance buff. Unlikely but we can always hope
2 - Faqs that will help us in some way. Like flickerfield stacking with jink or every power weapon in the codex being ap 2.

The future is indeed grim.

\

Can... We... Just... Wait... Till... The... Rulebook... Is.... Out....

This is getting old, everytime a new codex/rulebook comes out, people complain about how screwed up it is before it even hits the shelf. Let's give it a chance, no one has had a chance to even play a game yet. If you're so worried about it, take up Warmachine, where everything is overpowered and the points don't matter.

yeah, it's not probable that huskblade and agonisers got that nerfed. if that's the case, then I'll just take venom blades

It's probable tbh... every gk weapon is ap3 now.

Ereshkigal wrote:

First post i made in this forum and it's already a complain! A nice way to introduce myself!!!

First of all, welcome to the Dark City, please take your time, and go to the visitors information and ask the wrak there for a list of do's & don't's and don't let him fool you into a free biological checkup.... it's a Trap!

Ereshkigal wrote:

I've read all the rumors so far and it seems that DE got the shaft in the 6th edition:

Well i guess as always there are two, sorry 3 Partys here. The ones like you, the opposite, and the one's that do not want to find them selfs in a groupe ;-) I'm in the opposition, as you may already have noticed.

Ereshkigal wrote:

1 - Every cc power weapon is ap3. We can't kill enemy HQ or termies in cc it seems. Except Lelith... she ignores armor alltogether. No more wyches, incubi, tooled archons, succubus and so on. Even Vect or Drazhar will die against standard termies.

Here you stated something as a fact, even though there is a good reason to belive, that not all power weapons are AP3.
Especially the power axe stands out. Funny that the power axe is more in kin to the Klaivar than the power weapon, still people still think it "is" AP3. We do not have the FAQs so there is no need to cry out. We will just have to wait.

Ereshkigal wrote:

2 - That's makes shadowfield weaker than a terminator armor.

Why. a shadowfeld will not fall to a powerfist,thunderhammer, lascanon, melta. It's still an inv. save. Sure if we would only have AP3 CC weapons, if would be frak up. But we do not know it, and it is unlikely, so not to worry ;-)

Ereshkigal wrote:

3 - Venoms, raider and ravagers 2 hull points, i want to laugh really. 2 glancing from bolters (now firing at 24) and we lost a ship...

First i hear from this. The guy who made Q&A in the interwebs had stated 3HP is the status quo, and raiders have 3 HP and vipers 2.
But you have to remember, we will not always have a 5+save(against most things) that can be even better while the night is on. and the first glance from a bolter has no chance at all to blow up the raider. not even the second. and seriously, it was always that, if we got hit, we had a problem. even with glances. now its not that bad anymore ;-) still bad, but not worse XD

Ereshkigal wrote:

4 - Fleet nerfed hard.

yeah, because.. wait. Fleet was running D6" and charging 6". Now Fleet is sync Charging 2D6". It will most of the time, make not much difference. and if you charge into cover, its now even better!

Ereshkigal wrote:

5 - Cannot disembark if the transport moves more than 6"

Well as previously posted, 29" Charge distance is pretty OP. now we have 3" less, oh my... cry me a river ;-) *now can't get Justin out of my head, AHH*

Ereshkigal wrote:

6 - Cannot contest or capture from embarked (paired with the one before, we are screwed)

the others too ;-) and why not put some wraks on the ground. They still make up for a good objective capture unit. Sure not an improvement but meh..

Ereshkigal wrote:

7 - Allies everywhere, but we can only be bff with eldars. Worse than us only tyranids.

As meantioned, we get acess to the best psi powers. stand and shoot with regular BF, sure! but wouldn't you even say that it is kind of fluffy that no one else really trusts us?

Ereshkigal wrote:

8 - Jink saves 5+ for skimmers. Flickerfield for everyone, but we paid for it on the venoms and we can't take it away in favor for night shields.

Flickerfelds still have their use, even if now expensive. But venoms are really good for their price tag so please stop complaining that a great unit with a good price is not cheap enough.

Ereshkigal wrote:

9 - FnP 5+ goodbye wracks and haemies. They just destroyed every melee unit we had.

Jep, Wracks, our melee unit... no but really, if you consider that FnP now works against AP1 and AP2 it is only a little bit worse, as it gives our wracks and grotesques a save against GK, and against force weapons in generall!

Ereshkigal wrote:

10 - Furious charge lost the bonus initiative. Yay! Wracks and Haemie strike together with marines, another reason no to take them!

Don't know about it, but would be a sad, as it surely helped. but could you say how it changed? Is it only +1S now or what?

Ereshkigal wrote:

If i search more i think i will find other areas where we got nerfed. Is there any reason to continue playing DE competitively?

Maybe you should check what got better and then proceed to elaborate if we are still competitive. From a grand prospective i think we are still competitive as the nerfs and boosts qual each other out.

Think about the things we haven't noticed. Consolidating is only 3" and you remove casulties from front to back, so if you kill all enemys in 3" of your archon they can not target him.
Especially the new removing of casulties will bring more tactics into the game, as it will be important to shoot or assault from the right direction.

I hope my welcome wasn't to hard on you ;-)

Ereshkigal wrote:

We can safely assume that is the same with power weapons.

mh, and whats with a power axe? it used to be a regulair power weapons, look into the SW book. we will surely not get all of our weapons AP2, but i'm pretty sure Inccubi will get their AP2, the Klaivar is more axe then sword. The Huskblade is pretty expensive so that could be a good reason for AP2. But i guess they'll leave the agoniser at AP3 just to give the termis some chance against us. So we can safely assume, that we do not have a clue what it will be.

Sorrowshard wrote:

Not just termies but anything with a 2+ save , to be fair our characters were a bit poop at fighting other IC's anyway, just no point in taking them at all , universally overpriced and underperforming . Bleurgh !

Speak for you own Chars. My ones still kicked ass. especially against other Chars. But if you do not belief in your Archons, why should they perform ;-)

sláinte

Sorrowshard wrote:

Not just termies but anything with a 2+ save , to be fair our characters were a bit poop at fighting other IC's anyway, just no point in taking them at all , universally overpriced and underperforming . Bleurgh !

and why would you say that? Considering our Archon rocks the best save in the game, and combine that with a huskblade that IDs (and we cant confirm or deny if it is AP2 or not, so right now lets just assume it is) we will be the best duelist against any generic HQ, and even against a ton of SC that arent eternal warrior. Hitting on 3s and wounding on 5s with 5 attacks gives us a 1.110 wounds against MEQ, adding in the abligatory iron halo gives us a 55% chance to instant gib a captain (storm shield =36% chance) . Compare that to a 4 attack Thunderhammer has a 27% chance to instant gib the Archon. That isnt inculding the attack from the charge, or any drug result. Actually I would say try any generic HQ from any book, and our Archon will beat him good 70~80% of the time.

Now if you are talking SC, Vect is still the best dualist around short of Failbaddon (again we cant say his weapon is AP3 or AP2 until we see) and our SC still all serve some purpose in the book (short of Decap... but I guess we will have to see what he does... if anything)

So you are lucky ? well done to you , have a gold star ...

Our characters are weak , 35 points for a str 3 (possibly ap3) 'force weapon is not good , we dont have toughness and we dont have good saves our one ok yet unreliable save is a one time deal and costs a fortune

sure we go first but are more or less incabable of doing much damage before we get squished like a fly.

Even our special chars are worse than Imperial equivalents.

I'm not sure I have ever once passed more than a couple of saves on a shadowfeild , its disturbing just how reliably I can roll a one the first time ....

There's a reason most people just take a heamy or two and leve it at that.