HELP! Which list for Throne of Skulls this weekend?

Hello!

I'm relatively new to Dark Eldar but an old hand at 40k. Traditionally Eldar have been my main army, so I am not unfamiliar with playing finesse but Dark Eldar seem to either win really big or get spanked (I've only played 5 games thus far).

So I am off to Throne of Skulls this weekend and I have 3 lists to present to the experienced forum here. Basic rundown is that I will not break theme, which is a raiding Corsair Force (The Void Stalkers). They are represented as Wyches and I only own the models that I present in the lists below - so there are no options to swap for warriors or Raiders etc.

Based on the above - I would really appreciate your points of view on which of my below lists would be best at a 'take all comers' tournament setting and why. I'm assuming that to those of you in the know, my tactics with the lists are obvious. So enough jabber:

LIST 1

Lord Jaraka (Duke Sliscus the Serpent) 150

4 Hekatrix Bloodbrides: haywire grenades. 135
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.

5 Wyches: Hekatrix (venom blade); haywire grenades. 150
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.
5 Wyches: Hekatrix (venom blade); haywire grenades. 150
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.
5 Wyches: Hekatrix (venom blade); haywire grenades. 150
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.
5 Wyches: Hekatrix (venom blade); haywire grenades. 150
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.
5 Wyches: Hekatrix (venom blade); haywire grenades. 150
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.

Razorwing Jetfighter: flicker field. 155
Razorwing Jetfighter: flicker field. 155
Razorwing Jetfighter: flicker field. 155

1,500 points

LIST 2

Lord Jaraka (Duke Sliscus the Serpent) 150

4 Hekatrix Bloodbrides: haywire grenades. 135
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.

5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 125
• Venom: splinter cannon.
5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 125
• Venom: splinter cannon.
5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 125
• Venom: splinter cannon.
5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 125
• Venom: splinter cannon.
5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 125
• Venom: splinter cannon.
5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 125
• Venom: splinter cannon.

Razorwing Jetfighter: flicker field. 155
Razorwing Jetfighter: flicker field. 155
Razorwing Jetfighter: flicker field. 155

1,500 points

LIST 3

Lord Jaraka (Succubus): agoniser; splinter pistol; haywire grenades. 90

4 Hekatrix Bloodbrides: haywire grenades. 135
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.

5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 135
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.
5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 135
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.
5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 135
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.
5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 135
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.
5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 135
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.
5 Wyches: haywire grenades. 135
• Venom: splinter cannon; night shields.

Razorwing Jetfighter: flickerfield. 155
Razorwing Jetfighter: flickerfield. 155
Razorwing Jetfighter: flickerfield. 155

1,500 points

So I would say none tbh...

First off all your AT is tied up in close range combat (haywires) or your planes which dont come onto the board till T2 at the earliest, and even then they are confused because they want to shoot missiles at infantry, not waist their turns shooting at vehicles. Your wyches also want to get as close as possible, but are your only scoring option and have to be kept safe...

Add in wyches cant do anything worth damage unless in large groups, your small squads wont do any damage, and just get SA.

Personally I say go back to the drawing board, but if I would HAVE to choose one of the 3, I would go with #2. Atleast then you have duke to maybe help your wyches combat output with a decent drug result (but barely) and can protect some of your troops by deepstriking them.

I am a fan of wyches in venoms. The problem I see is that your first turn AT is nonexistent. In none of your lists is there a dark lance on the table turn one and that could be a problem for you since our main method of not dying is making them die first.
Id switch out one or two of the razorwings for a Ravager and maybe put a couple of the gals in raiders.

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

I am a fan of wyches in venoms. The problem I see is that your first turn AT is nonexistent. In none of your lists is there a dark lance on the table turn one and that could be a problem for you since our main method of not dying is making them die first.
Id switch out one or two of the razorwings for a Ravager and maybe put a couple of the gals in raiders.

+1

You need a REALLY good reason IMHO not to take 3 Ravengers as the first thing on your list ..

Wow. I didn't respond to the above before I made it to the Throne of Skulls because it was all very much what I expected to hear (must have Ravagers to win games etc)...

However - I just took home Best Dark Eldar General after winning all 5 games in a row (tabled 4 and 1 conceded) and even faced the new Tau in all their Riptide and Broadside glory TWICE.

Frankly - I haven't really needed first turn anti tank. If my opponent has been meched I either turbo right into them or I hide and wait for the razorwings. Either way - the tactics seemed to work well for me...
Thought you folks here might like to know and debate it a bit more.

Cheers,

Lawrence

Well done!

I've had a few friends up there myself who did very well with their Tau.

Looking at your list the first thing I would talk about is where is your first turn anti-tank: I've been struggling with it myself but your tactics circumvent that so very well done.

I'd be interested to see how your list fares in a competitive indie tournament.

I agree cograts on your showing. I am assuming you took list 2 for 7 units with HWGs and the duke? It goes to show anything can work, all depends on so many factors. I would interested in seeing the lists you faced, if you can remember the general breakdown of each.

Quote :

Frankly - I haven't really needed first turn anti tank. If my opponent has been meched I either turbo right into them or I hide and wait for the razorwings. Either way - the tactics seemed to work well for me...

Dont your opponents ever bubble wrap their armour to keep your wyches from assaulting them? This tactic can be pretty problematic and its one of the main reasons wyches are more of backup/supplemental AT for me. That and anti walker/tarpit duty. We put out serious AI firepower but some armies can still protect their armour pretty easily while dishing out their own fire. Anyway just curious and either way great job man.

Void Stalker wrote:

Wow. I didn't respond to the above before I made it to the Throne of Skulls because it was all very much what I expected to hear (must have Ravagers to win games etc)...

However - I just took home Best Dark Eldar General after winning all 5 games in a row (tabled 4 and 1 conceded) and even faced the new Tau in all their Riptide and Broadside glory TWICE.

Frankly - I haven't really needed first turn anti tank. If my opponent has been meched I either turbo right into them or I hide and wait for the razorwings. Either way - the tactics seemed to work well for me...
Thought you folks here might like to know and debate it a bit more.

Cheers,

Lawrence

Thanks for your battle report .

When i see Tau with broadsides and Riptides im pretty happy they are nasty/ flashy but chew so many points ... Lots of fire warriors and Crises suits and a hamemrhead and im worried .. Thats why ravengers are good , razor wings are about the same but more points.

The Ravengers are not just first turn anti tank.. They are 9 shots every turn or 3 after you losse 2 on the first turn if you go 2nd as good oponent will target them .. See those 5 terminators with Shields and hammers deep striking you on turn 2 put 9 shots in and its a lot eaiser to deal with. Besides they are quite fun , they are mobile ..

I must say im considering allies either Eldar with war walkers or IG with Autocannons /lass cannon just to get more heavy fire power and a cheap flyer...3 assault units are enough

DE are a mech / maneuve heavy fire power then assault army..especially with 6th ed Over watch.

Err... The guy just won best DE and you say that his list choices are bad.

This is the thing that makes our codex one of the most fun to play (even in a competetive environment). So many choices. The is no list that is absolutely better than others.

Congrats for your succes. Like to hear how the games went.

+1 Vasara, seriously guys Void Stalker just won best DE, won all of his games and you are lecturing him on his choices?

@Void Stalker: Good job, great to here DE doing well at tournaments!

Here's another Dark Edlar player who had five wins at Throne of skulls:

Panic Puppet takes on Throne of Skulls

Brom wrote:

Dont your opponents ever bubble wrap their armour to keep your wyches from assaulting them?

Bubble wrap is a lot less effective in 6th due to the way wounds are allocated. With all those venoms I don't see bubble wrap lasting long enough to be a problem.

Hey folks!

Glad that this has stirred up some conversation and thank you all for the kind words and feedback. I would have replied last night but I had frankly been drinking since 10am for the past three days straight and needed to crash!

@Brom Yes, I did take List Number 2.

@Mushkilla - Indeed, Panic Puppet and I were the only Dark Eldar Players to win all 5, I took best general due to votes in the end. He's a good lad, in fact most of us Dark Eldar players were chatting and looking out for each other all tournament. It's a great atmosphere and I would highly recommend it to anyone wanting to participate.

Right - rather then address you all individually (as I need to get out and have a breakfast for this hangover) - I will present you with a brief summary of my games for your own tactical analysis:

Game 1:

I played a lovely chap called Az with an Eldar army on the Crusade Mission with a Vanguard Strike Deployment. He had 2 wavesepants (with twin bright lance and shuri cannons), 1 with 5 wraithguard, a warlock and a Farseer. And 1 with 5 Dire Avengers. He then had a small unit of jet bikes in reserve as a second scoring unit and of course an Aegis Defence Line with quad gun manned by the Fire Dragon Exarch! Also behind the Defence Line were Dark Reapers and Exarch plus more avengers if I remember correctly...

Now this is where I would like to discuss my preference of Wyches over warriors with a blaster. Aegis Defence Lines. All of my friends in the competitive scene use them (bar me of course!) and they always put their tanks behind them for a 4++ save. Now that may not seem like much to you but in my experience our Dark Eldar 'first turn anti tank' so to speak has been seriously blunted by our opponents ability to bubble wrap their vehicles on the back line behind an aegis. If your opponent has deployed backline (and mine do) that humble blaster squad isn't in range turn one anyway and if they are you need a 3+ to hit followed by a 4+ (armour 12), then followed by a 4++ invuln (and don't get me started on my mate who takes camo netting for a 3++) AND this is all before you even get a chance to roll to blow the thing up!! It's tough going. The only thing which circumvents this is haywire in assault. As I said previously - I have never had a problem dealing with mech. It looks bad for me on paper and indeed after my first turn but once my Wyches get in I usually have wrecked 5 vehicles in a turn and by now I have razor wings in for support. It works. Trust me.

Also when the void raven comes out I will swap the razor wings for them but until then I'm stuck with the razors...

Anyway - I digress! Back to the game, it was night fight and he went first. I deployed right back, flanking most of his army so that his wavesepants were out of range because of night fight and that everything else that shot me I would be getting a 3++ save behind ruins. I should also note here that I always roll on the Strategic Traits in hope for Night Attacker or the Reserve bonuses etc. his first turn as you can imagine was un-eventful. My first turn involved me moving 12" directly towards his lines - I didn't need to turbo in this case as thee were plenty of ripe infantry targets and his wave serpamts would have to come to me to deliver their short range payloads. First target - Quad gun. 2 venoms later and I had dealt with his anti air. The remaining venoms ploughed through his reapers and dragons who had to go to ground to survive. His turn two was more eventful downing around 3 venoms with serpants wraithguard and avengers. But suffice to say when my turn 2 hit there were 2 wrecked serpamts, 1 dead dire avnger unit and Sliscuss into the Wraithguard etc.

He was tabled by turn 5.

Game 2:

Big guns Never Tire, Dawn of War. This fellow also got first turn and had a Grey Knight Coteaz wing with guard allies and the dreaded vendetta. He also had 2 dread knights and lots of heavy bolter wielding servitors who he deployed in a bastion with an Icarus las cannon. And he had that choir of psychers that can do strength 10 blasts, sat in a rhino. He also had that cheeky Marbo character.

Same tactics as the first game. Flank the enemy making much of his army ineffective, take out his air defence (las cannon) and ruin his infantry's day with poison. My razor wings dealt with his vendetta and Sliscuss eventually killed both Dreadknights in combat!! Suffice to say - he was also tabled by turn 5.

Game 3:

The Relic, Hammer amd Anvil. Andy with a vicious Tau army. Farsighted Bomb, Rip Tide. Broadsides, a Sky Ray, pathfinders, and a load of fire warriors tucked away behind (you guessed it!) an aegis with a quad gun.

Not only that but of the three times I got first turn I had the initiative stolen. That was rude. I deployed frontline as range was not an issue for his army (and i thought i had first turn) and his fire warriors didn't ignore night fight (whilst everything else did) without marker light support. His first turn he wrecked a venom he tried to down the Sliscuss venom but was out of range due to night shields - mistake he kindly let me take back afterwards as I had forgotten that his venom had them. Either way, he had first blood and it could have been worse if I hadn't passed 3 invuln saves on my venoms. But frankly it's poetic justice as he was rude stealing my initiative

Same tactics as before accept one major difference. Every moved 12" and ploughed poison into his broadsides dealing with them. A unit was out and picked up the relic and Sliscuss flat out moved into his lines near the Rip Tide.

To cut a long story short, I had given him a major problem with Sliscuss being ready to assault him turn 2. Much if his fire went into downing that venom and killing his body guard but I made my shadow field saves and Sliscuss survived subsequently tearing through his right flank and the rip tide with the rest of my Wyches that hit his lines turn 2. The farsighted bomb downed three venoms in total and kept trying to kill Wyches holding the relic who just kept playing 'pass the parcel'. ,y 3 razor wings dealt with the farsighted bomb and subsequently mopped up the rest of his army.

Any concede turn 5. With only a handful of figures left on the table.

Game 4:

Another Andy. Another Tau player. And the second guy to steal initiative from me!! He also had a defence line with quad. Around 30 fire warriors with 2 fire blades. 3 broadsides, a hammer head, Eldrad and jet bikes as allies so he could guide all his shots etc, a large unit of outflanking kroot and a crisis suit with fusion blasters... all pretty nasty stuff. I deployed out of range of his fire warriors first turn to save myself just in case he stole initiative (which he did). He had castled himself in a corner back lining his broad sides, pathfinders and fir warriors etc This is a mistake in my opinion as my tactics should highlight. He did indeed down two venoms in and immobilise a third in his first turn. I then took out his quad gun and poured everything into his broad sides forcing them to break and run off the table as he was right on the edge. Tau do not have great leadership and in subsequent turns I just took 25% casualties from as many units as I could forcing them to take morale checks - he lost around 3 units with this tactic. My Wyches made combat with eldrads unit and chased the, down after winning combat.

The razor wings weren't even really needed in this game other then for mopping up duty. He was tabled by turn 4.

Game 5:

Emperor's Children Chaos! Since we gave birth to their god I thought it was appropriate that I give this enemy a proper education around pleasure and pain He had 3 noise units, 2 shooty ignore cover groups and one choppy group with lord. A unit of havocs. A predator. A hell drake. A mauler fiend.

I got first turn and then guess what happened? FOR THE THIRD TIME I HAD MY INITIATIVE STOLEN!! He downed a couple of venoms but suffice to say that my Wyches killed the mauler fiend by throwing haywires at him, the havocs and noise marines were killed with poison, his drake was brought down by my razor wings and I had the chap tabled by turn 4.

So there you have it. Hope that helps!

Void Stalker wrote:

in fact most of us Dark Eldar players were chatting and looking out for each other all tournament

Good to see the community looking out for each other.

Void Stalker wrote:

FOR THE THIRD TIME I HAD MY INITIATIVE STOLEN!!

One of the reason I always build my DE around going second. First turn is over rated anyway.

Mushkilla wrote:

Void Stalker wrote:

in fact most of us Dark Eldar players were chatting and looking out for each other all tournament

Good to see the community looking out for each other.

Void Stalker wrote:

FOR THE THIRD TIME I HAD MY INITIATIVE STOLEN!!

One of the reason I always build my DE around going second. First turn is over rated anyway.

Congratulations Void Stalker!

Nice to see such a 'different' list (I'm a big fan of R-wings anyway) and thanks for the battle reports too

Do you have any pictures of your army? I saw quite a few Dark Eldar at ToS, would like to know which one was yours (I never stopped to count razorwings!).

I didn't take my Dark Eldar in the end, couldn't get my ravager painted or afford a new raider that I wanted.

I did, however, manage to take home best Space Marine player and win 4 of my games - good showing for the Dark City forumites eh?

Oh and, like you, I found that a lot of people were surprised by my rather 5th ed mech list.

Whatever works, eh?

Grats again man!

Thanks very much! Here are some pics for you - I unfortunately couldn't finish my Dark Eldar (as mentioned earlier I haven't had them long and in fact have only now played about 10 games with them!) so the majority of them were only base coated in a deep red (including all the vehicles) but the pics above show you some of my finished 'Corsair' Void Stalkers.

Congratulations to yourself Alsarion for getting best Space Marine player, no mean feat, considering how many of you there were! Well done.

I'm glad that we've done the forum proud

Void Stalker wrote:

Thanks very much! Here are some pics for you - I unfortunately couldn't finish my Dark Eldar (as mentioned earlier I haven't had them long and in fact have only now played about 10 games with them!) so the majority of them were only base coated in a deep red (including all the vehicles) but the pics above show you some of my finished 'Corsair' Void Stalkers.

Congratulations to yourself Alsarion for getting best Space Marine player, no mean feat, considering how many of you there were! Well done.

I'm glad that we've done the forum proud

Indeed we did!

I did see your army, my friend (who plays Grey Knight Terminators+Dreadknights) turned to me and said ''I really hope I don't play that''.

Haha!

Painting's looking great, nice work.

Just wanted to chime in and offer my congrats again for sneaking best Dark Eldar player . I'm not too disappointed about missing out on the award as I had a great weekend, and didn't expect to get anywhere near five wins out of five! As a whole Dark Eldar did pretty well, there were five of us there - two went 5-0, two went 3-2, and the last had a win and two draws. 17 wins and two draws out of a combined total of 25 games is a great result.

@Alsarion - congrats on best SM player - great achievement! Not sure if you saw my army - it was the dark turquoise one with a pair of razorwings, I'll try and get some photos put up at some point later this week. Mush linked to my thread above; its over in the batrep section!

@Panic_Puppet Thanks mate - nice meeting you and well fought. No doubt see you on the field at another one soon!

Those Wyches look awesome!

Do you have any recollection on what those other three DE players fielded? Were allies prohibited? At least the the two of you who did well had 5 Razorwing Jets together and only one Ravager.

You played my friend Andy K with his Farsight bomb, good to see you do well against Tau. Heard you were unhappy with the original comments from the forum?

I'm going to the one in November, maybe try and get as many of us as we can to go then? If you guys here are interested I'll start a thread up..

@Vasara Thanks pal - I know that one of the players was allied with Eldar and had 1 Razorwimg/2ravagers and that another had the more traditional 3 ravaged setup - not sure about the last player...

@Sky Serpent Andy mentioned he had a friend in The Dark City - I wasn't so much unhappy as disappointed that my lists were written off as they had no Ravagers or lances. And the standard 'wych armies don't work' attitude as they can't inflict enough damage etc... But there you go - I had hoped that this thread would highlight that Dark Eldar do indeed have other builds available to them, other then lance and blaster spam.

I too am going again in November! Would be great for you to start up a thread where we can all put our respective lists up and meet each other properly at the event! I'm hoping that I can change my razor wings for void ravens by November time as they're apparently coming with apocalypse around June... Here's hoping anyway!

Oh and since I can tell you're a Sliscuss fan - I can tell you that over the course of the tourney he killed 2 Dread Knights, 2 Rip Tides, 1 Farseer and 4 Wraithguard, not to mention a swath of infantry. He. Is. A. Beast.

Congrats on your wins and your placement, but I dont see how the list won anything.

First off your AI comes in the form of venoms, yet you spend T1 mostly moving them flat out to get into haywire range. Which is fine and dandy, but your taklng two turns of fire before your army does anything of relative decent damage.

Add in bloodbrides do NO damage in such a small squad, Im surprised they even won combat at all... Even when backed by duke, who himself isnt that good in combat when compared to an archon.

That being said, your opponents lists weren that optimized at all either. Thats the things about tournaments, you never know what they of player you are going to face. If they playstyle works for you, then congrats. But I wouldnt of thrown money on any of these lists to win.

Fair enough. But I don't always turbo boost. I only do that if there are no valid infantry targets (they are all mech). I move 12" unload all the poison and I'm still in assault turn 2 anyway. I only turbo boost against mech for the extra save OR if I can stay out of range I hide and wait for my razors.

Both Tau lists (esp. Farsight bomb were optimised so I disagree with you there) and just to end the Wyches aren't good in combat (unless at around 8-10 in a raider) argument once and for all as I have heard this from many people, why is it assumed that I charge single 5 man units into enemies by themselves.

All assaults I have won by charging in at least 2 units at a time against the SAME target. I usually have remnant units (from exploded venoms or fire) charge first to absorb any snap fire). Also, I try and aim to have the enemy survive the first round in combat so that I don't get shot to pieces in his phase. It's one of the tactics that have really worked well for me... So, I don't know what to say? My two friends that went with me both took home Best Eldar Player (George) and Best Blood Angel Player (John), so am deffo used to playing 'optimised' lists.

But hey whatever works for an individual is all that matters. My wych army has served me well thus far.

I am a full supporter of dual charges, but the problem is the wyches arent what does the damage, its the sargie that consistantly gets through due to her weapon. S3 and only 2 attacks (3 on the charge) does nothing to MEQ statline. Now ofc you can mitigate this with Drugs and duke, but even that isnt guarenteed. Add in that your scoring options are in combat... or getting slaughtered from explosions. That isnt too apealing to me.

Farsight bomb is a gimick list. If you can minimalize the gimick's effectiveness, you basically kill the army. From your own bat-rep farsight bomb didnt do much in the form of damage, and it seemed he was scared to get into combat with your wyches (who knows why... they should of eaily been able to whipe up 5 wyches). You basically pulled most of his points out of the battle as they focused on killing 5 wyches who carried the relic, then you would pick it up again. You had enough bodies to just waste turns picking it up every time. (this is a problem with the relic mission in general. I wish GW would just fix it, but whatever)

TBH it sounds like you did well due to the general 6th edition meta that is all foot/flyer, which we excell at killing. Even a few venoms can easily crush lists like that, and you running 7 + 3x razorwings for mass AI ruined their day. Not saying its a bad thing to plan for the meta, it just seems that if one guy even had a handful of tanks, you would of had a tougher time.

What did your BA friend take, and what was his record??? They are an army that interests me in that they loss alot in this edition change. I feel that can be compeitive if built right, but they are definately having a rough time out there. Its always good to hear armies like that doing well though

True story on the meta. I have been playing heavy mech armies in the form of my friends though (only twice)... Which leads me to my friends blood angel list:

John was running a more 'fun' rather then super competitive list this time. I think he walked away with 3 wins and 1 draw... It might have been 4 wins though. He's taken away best Demon army as well before, which is his more super competitive list.

His list was a non scoring Death Company army, so he played for secondary objectives and wipe out every game.. He Ran one Land Raider with death company inside. A storm raven, with Mephiston inside. 2 flying librarian dreads and 1 chaplain dread.

I'm not saying that lance spam Dark Eldar armies don't work by the way, and I very much respect the opinion of those of you here that obviously have more experience with Dark Eldar than I. I merely present my results over the 10 games that I have played thus far and it has definitely worked for me across a real variety of opponents and armies.

Hope that it is informative at any rate

interesting take on the BA army. Was FW allowed??? (I think that only FW has rules for a chappy dread) if so Im surprised you didnt run into a ton of guard players toting around their sabre turrets that are all the rage now