HELP! Which list for Throne of Skulls this weekend?

Ah, I don't see it being a huge problem after turn two...but then again I haven't fought anyone who bubble-wraps.

Void Stalker wrote:

I get the point of view. 9 dark lances on the field from turn 1 is tasty. But the very armies you mention such as a guard - (my friend runs 3 vendettas) and necrons my other friend who took best Necrons at ToS last year runs 4 Night Scythes. With no air defence we really stand no chance against those lists. Hence why I take 3 Razorwings (which will be switched to the Void Raven when they come out), I don't believe in being able to ignore these types of flyer armies and come out on top. I've played them many times and know from painful experience that I need to take my own to at least have a decent chance of having a game.

As for troops bubble wrapping their tanks, I believe it was mushkilla that hit upon the tactic I use - they are just cleared out with venom fire. 6th ed demands casualties from the front so I have not yet had an opponent successfully bubble wrap their tanks to protect them against me yet...

As for the a eldar allies he was using Prescience (from divination in the rulebook) not Guide...

Hope that helps.

2 Dark eldar lists won State Champions in Australia ..and none had any anti air and the opposing lists were full of air Vendetta spam and Necrons Scythe spam.

Against Guard vs Vendetta you are at a huge disadvantage he can improve his reinforce rolls and reduce yours. His Vendettas are better at killing you and they are cheaper..so the rest of his army has an advantage.

There are options
1) Ignore his air / dance to avoid them and kill the rest of his army .. take advantage of the fact he gets 1 turn , moves the full distance
2) If you do enough to his anti tank in turn 2 you probably have 12 lances even if you need a 6 thats 2 hiits ...
3) At > 1800 the Wall and Icharis gun are ok .. Though you should expect to loose it .. A nice bonus is deploying vehicles behind it if you go 2nd ..


"As for troops bubble wrapping their tanks, I believe it was mushkilla that hit upon the tactic I use - they are just cleared out with venom fire. 6th ed demands casualties from the front so I have not yet had an opponent successfully bubble wrap their tanks to protect them against me yet..."

Yep which is why imj a firm believer in a venom (or 2) of 3 true born with 4 SC ( very cost effective per SC) , but if you dont have the lances your venoms will be wrecks ( Wracks :-) ) ..

Korazell wrote:

I fought one of those on sunday and won mostly due to him ignoring my two venoms of wyches. Bubble-wrap means nothing when shot with the missles and venoms as the wounds will literally peel away the front wrapping and allow a space to assualt.

Trust me, it's doable. The only question is with some other players playtesting it is if it's the new "template" wych cult standard that performs well in a all comers list.

Ignoring venoms is not good play you wont have that at higher levels.

Korazell wrote:

I just don't see it becoming a problem unless heavy mechanized IG...but then I'd move up first turn with venoms behind line of sight blocking cover, then second turn bomb and lance, then charge. -Shrugs.-

And what if your on a mostly open board... and worse go 2nd. Thats what we are saying how do you handle as many condiitions as possible ..and not be at too much disadvantage..

eg
- Necron flyer spam
- Guard with 3 Vandetta or Chaos Marine with
- Lots of flamers or mass BS2/3 over watch
- Lots of bubble wrapped vehicles
- Open board
- Going 2nd
- poor reinforcement rolls.
- Deep strikjing list hitting your venoms

Were not saying getting wrid of all the Wyches but 2-3 can do almost what you do and add lots of other options.

Good to hear that some play testing will be done with it Korazell - that's all I hoped to come out of this thread. I believe that the wych list is a valid competitive option... Be good to hear how others get on with it and of course the age old flyer vs ravager debate!

Which incidentally I would also like to mention why I think the Void Raven is better then the Ravager. I know, I know - its very controversial!! But as has been math hammered in the past, the Voids 2 higher Str lances end up being about the same damage output as the ravagers 3. However, the Void Raven ALSO has the bomb and can accurately (1d6 scatter -4BS means you pretty much always hit enemy tanks) engage 2 separate targets on the turn that it arrives. It ALSO has Armour 11 and is not open topped - not to mention that it is a flyer making it hard to hit.

There are only 2 things that make the Ravager an option. 1. It's cheaper. 2. It starts on the table turn 1. Which for your main source of anti tank (another reason why I have 7 units with haywire) is very easy for your opponents to destroy as opposed to the Void Raven.

Of course this is just my opinion but with my play testing I'm yet to be shown the void raven under perform in comparison with the Ravager.

Wow - I've really started a debate here - I'm out at the mo but will address the list design in a couple of hours and yes Mushkilla, I have played AV12 wall once - to briefly address that now I found that throwing haywire grenades to wreck the transports first and then assaulting their squishy contents allowed my wyches to survive into turn 3 and mop up afterwards.

Love to go more in depth but have to dash now - will chime I'm again later...

I think the list has merit, certainly, but I think it requires a certain play style in order to get the most out of it. For example, if we'd met up on Saturday morning and decided to swap lists before playing, I doubt I'd have won all my games with your list.

Couple of questions though - firstly, I thought the bomb was still 2d6 scatter minus BS? If it is 1d6 I've been playing it wrong all the way through my testing. It also makes the mine a certain hit on any tank as even with the max scatter (2") your 3" diameter template is guaranteed to still touch it if it was centred. I do, however, believe that void ravens would suit your list better than razorwings regardless.

Secondly, how did you manage to effectively wreck the tanks by throwing haywires at them and assaulting the contents? You can only chuck one grenade from a squad, so you'd need 4 squads to reliably get rid of a 3 hull point vehicle (3s to hit, so you'll miss one of the first 3, and then you're most likely to glance), meaning that without some extreme luck you're only going to be getting two tanks a turn. Then when you charge, that many wyches should really mess up whatever was inside, leaving you wide open to be shot at.

Bombs scatter 1d6 but you don't minus BS.

Void Stalker wrote:

yes Mushkilla, I have played AV12 wall once - to briefly address that now I found that throwing haywire grenades to wreck the transports first and then assaulting their squishy contents allowed my wyches to survive into turn 3 and mop up afterwards.

Well you must be a very talented tactician. The only reason I have ever beaten AV12 spam with my Wych Cult was down to the Guard Player being of the sit still and shoot type, not to mention that was with a load of heatlances to boot. So I appologies for my pessimism.

But Dark Eldar have never been a one size fits all army. I for one have never been a fan of ravagers. Wyches just didn't cut it for me this edition, one of the reasons I changed from running wyches to running warrior a few months into 6th. So whatever works for you. The important thing is to find a list that suits your play style.

Though I find it healthy to discuss the possible weaknesses of a list.

Howdy folks...
Got a few mins now to address the points more thoroughly.

@ Panic Puppet Right - under the Void Raven rules it states that the bomb only scatters 1d6, not 2d6 as Mushkilla has pointed out. I was still under the impression that you did minus your BS afterwards however. I don't have a rule book to hand so can't check that - but I'll defer to his experience here. As for the haywire trick - this is what has worked for me: I have the duke fire his blaster and his blood bride unit throw a haywire, usually resulting in 2 hull points, then a second or third unit as required will finish it off. Basically the army splits in half and focuses on two chimeras. The trick is to target full squads in assault as you actually don't want to steam roll them in 1 turn. I want to finish him in his assault phase and thereby avoid his shooting. Also remember that by turn 2 I have on average 2 flyers on (ideally void ravens which also have a good chance of opening up 1 to 2 more tanks for my wyches to engage. It's worked well for me thus far.

I agree though, that the list is not for the faint hearted - it requires a certain fast and aggressive play style - especially against mech lists, that after receiving a turn of their fire can leave you quite down hearted!!! The thing is, my turn 2 is always very sweet.

Basically the whole premise of my list is that it is ironically a Counter Attack army rather then a traditional Dark Eldar Alpha Strike army.

@Mushkilla - I'm hardly a great tactician - but thank you for your kind words - I'm still very new to dark eldar and have lots to learn I'm sure. I have had good success in my 10 games with the above list though and I believe that my tactics with it give me answers to an 'all comers' tourney setting... Which ultimately is why I want to share it with my fellows here on the forum

@bklooste Going second is actually not to much of a problem. There is a 50% chance of night fight. Increased by rolling on the strategic warlord traits and even if you don't get night fight - against armour wall armies (chimeras or annihilation barges etc), you have the advantage of seeing where they deploy and deploying out of range, wasting their turn. Barges and indeed other mid range armies (grey knights) have a 24" range. If you deploy back line they will be out of range turn one. Even 36" multi lasers (42" with their 6" move) can be avoided by deploying your venoms back line and in profile...

As I said - the army is a counter attack army and actually doesn't mind losing first turn to most opponents.

The bombing run rules in the BRB make no mention of subtracting BS from the dice roll. So I would assume you don't.

Void Stalker wrote:

Basically the whole premise of my list is that it is ironically a Counter Attack army rather then a traditional Dark Eldar Alpha Strike army.

To be honest it's not that ironic. Personally I prefer to go second in all match ups. I think a lot of Dark Eldar players depend too much on that first turn alpha strike to win.

On the other hand I would never depend on night fight, as most armies can negate it with search lights or other gear (not to mention I never seem to get night fight on first turn no matter how many times I pray to the dice muses).

Void Stalker wrote:

I agree though, that the list is not for the faint hearted - it requires a certain fast and aggressive play style - especially against mech lists, that after receiving a turn of their fire can leave you quite down hearted!!! The thing is, my turn 2 is always very sweet.

I had a similar aggressive play style with my wych list and it did very well. But I found once opponent learn't to deal with that aggresive play style they can shut it down effectively. All they need to do is not panic.

@bklooste Going second is actually not to much of a problem. There is a 50% chance of night fight. Increased by rolling on the strategic warlord traits and even if you don't get night fight - against armour wall armies (chimeras or annihilation barges etc), you have the advantage of seeing where they deploy and deploying out of range, wasting their turn. Barges and indeed other mid range armies (grey knights) have a 24" range. If you deploy back line they will be out of range turn one. Even 36" multi lasers (42" with their 6" move) can be avoided by deploying your venoms back line and in profile...

re Ravengers the fact they all of them are there on turn 1 AND every turn is a big + .. a 3rd advantage is they are not limited to flying rules turn , full move and 9" min range ( thoguh flyers can move as skimmers but then they are not 6 to hit)

You sound like your pretty good at the table .. you should try to mix it up a bit when your at 1850 you wont loose much ( and you dont want to spam more wyches) . Try 10 Wracks ( need hemi) with 2 liquifiers to take some hear... some venoms with 3 wracks or splinter born to sit back (cheaper) , swap the Hekatrix for incubi , .. All these changes will play similar ( and is independent of the Ravenger discussion) .

I think at a increase in points he said he would run three sqauds of six reavers, which honestly I think would serve him well with blasters as they have some good movement to add to range.

Aside from that, replacing the blood-wyches with Incubi isn't a bad idea, honestly, as Blood-brides are not really all that stellar when not given wych weapons. I do agree that templates would be neat but they have a bit of randomness to them and sometimes are either brilliant or lack-luster while wyches have a nice average. I do like them on the talos since it's twin linked, however.

I'm not sold on wracks as units, honestly, as I don't see the benefit to them over others...

But Incubi converted to more wychy standards with the duke could be good too!

@ Bklooste Indeed. Nice suggestions - incubi would be fun to use and I think they're a great unit. In fact I would say that the blood brides in my list are probably the weakest link, due to them not being scoring and just more expensive Wyches!

Korazell is correct however, that I would add x3 units of 6 reavers with blasters at 1850, which is a common tourney standard here.

And on that point, now that I have a little more time to thoroughly explain my list picking choices (for an all comers tourney setting) at any points level, let me present to you my 'ARD' list building philosophy.

ARD List Building

The below should explain my 3 principles that my list was built on and this will also help explain why I don't believe my list is a 'gimmick' list. Gimmick lists usually rely on one trick to deal with an opponent, such as Harlie Stars or Baron leading Razorwing flocks, or Draigo wings etc. These are all good examples of gimmick lists. Gimmick lists can usually be overcome by certain forces easily (heldrake ruins the Baron/Razorwing combo for example). However, when building a list on the following two principles you are building a true 'All Comers' or 'Tournament' list.

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that these principles give you an 'unbeatable' list - they simply give you a list that covers all bases against all opponents.

1. A.I.M. Your list should be split into roughly third proportions to deal with Air. Infantry. Mech. That means that you have paid attention to making sure that you are not caught off guard by any army that spams one of the above types, Tyranids are a classic in my Infantry (very often see multi Tervigon Spawning lists) category for example, whereas Guard can be balanced (what we're going for) or can spam any of the A.I.M categories. Over Spamming in one category classifies you as a 'Gimmick' list, creating potential Rock, Paper, Scissor match ups in a tournament (Necron airforce of x6 night scythes is now nullified by tau lists that have at least two sky fire and intercept wielding rip tides for example), hence we try to equally proportion our answers to A.I.M out.

2. REDUNDANCY. Never have only 1-2 units to do a job when they are fragile. Many units are sometimes required to ensure a job can be executed properly and are especially important in fragile armies. Target Saturation and good deployment are the only things that YOU can control in a game of 40k. You can't rely on dice to win you first turn or get you that night fight but you can use REDUNDANCY to ensure that if you are caught on the back foot, you still have units left to retaliate to any situation. REDUNDANCY is often referred to as Spamming - rightfully so - my Dark Eldar list 'Spams' multiple of the same unit but what makes this not a gimmick list is that all my units have...

3. DUALITY. As many units as possible in the army need to be able to deal with 2-3 of our A.I.M categories. If you can find units that deal with all A.I.M categories then go with them - If they can't do 2-3 of the A.I.M categories (like incubi), I won't include them over another unit that can. Wych/Venom units have fantastic duality in 6th due to how grenades hit vehicles, in comparison with say a Warrior/Venom unit. Venoms in both cases can deal with infantry, reducing numbers for a wych charge, whilst Wyches can also lob a haywire grenade and subsequently charge and pretty much wreck any tank in the game. A blaster is only 1 shot and is statistically unlikely to wreck a vehicle in 1 shot. 3 units of 6 reavers however offers me redundancy and duality - 2 blasters are better then 1 for mech and blade vanes can be used against infantry targets as required. That makes a nice tournament unit. It is up to you how you make the units synergise together to best work at dealing with A.I.M but you will find that if you pick units that are capable of dealing with multiple situations and repeat them across the army, you will rarely be dissappointed with your armies' performance, dice gods aside that is

Hope that is informative to anyone that was bothered to read it! If anyone wants, I can always copy my list and paste the ARD List principles above it in the tactics forum?

Cheers,

Lawrence

Thanks for the break down, I'm sure most players a familiar with duality and redundancy. But feel free to post it in the tactics section if you want.

I aim to try and make lists that don't have any glaring hard counters. Like I said earlier your list crumbles against a solid mech guard list with master of the fleat. It is the rock to your sccisors and it's common enough to be a problem. Every time my list runs into a rock, and that rock is a popular rock, I go back to the drawing board. But that's just me.

Void Stalker wrote:

Wych/Venom units have fantastic duality in 6th due to how grenades hit vehicles, in comparison with say a Warrior/Venom unit.

I do think wyches in venoms are more interesting than warriors in venoms. Never been a fan of warriors in venoms though. Always prefered warriors in raiders.

Void Stalker wrote:

3 units of 6 reavers however offers me redundancy and duality - 2 blasters are better then 1 for mech and blade vanes can be used against infantry targets as required.

Reavers are great for the reasons you mentioned. Though personally I never found six reavers to be adequate in 6th, two blasters isn't enough. Squads of 9 have so much more potential in my eyes as it opens up assault as an option.

@ Thanks for that Mushkilla - I may well post it up there then...

Def agree squads of 9 reavers are best, but there never seems to be enough points does there?!

As for your mech guard argument, I do have a riposte if I may? Since my friend John plays a 3 Vendetta, Officer of the Fleet list, I'm well aware of the shenanigans they cause so to speak.

For a start, it is only a -1 to my reserve rolls. That means statistically, I should get at least 1 flyer in turn 2. I always roll on the Strategic Warlord traits, which gives me a chance of re-rolling failed reserves. Now I know that's not good enough but I also have a third contingency...

The officer of the fleet only effects reserves whilst he is alive and since these guys are usually sat with the Warlord, they better hope they are meched up in the first turn, because by turn two I will destroy that unit, taking the Warlord Victory Point and the reserve shenanigans away in one fell swoop. I also find, that ironically against guard, my flyers coming on later then theirs gives me the drop on the Vendettas.

So I guess my point is that he could effect my reserves for one turn, but it should only be one turn max, regardless of how many officers he has. My first strategy as was shown in my battle report breakdown is to deal with the enemies anti air - be it a quad gun or an officer of the fleet etc.

Maybe i'm getting lucky, as I haven't played that many games with the Dark Eldar yet, but whilst I agree, mech guard could be my hardest matchup, I do believe I have a solid list to give them a competitive game.

Void Stalker- I like your approach to Ard lists and the simple acronym thanks for sharing. I don't often attend competitive tourneys so I usually favor a few fun units over straight competitive armies, 2k team play being the exception where we get ugly.

Anyway I was also thinking about incubi over those brides simply for meq armour. The other option I would suggest which I use at 1k is duke in 3 splinterborn hwg, 2 sc, venom 2 sc, ns. Seems to fit the theme and does more damage than 2 venoms.

I have assualted with my reavers...and almost lost them to a sweeping advance. It was one inch short of it.

D: Right now my luck with my reavers is poor...but then again I'm a new player. And I didn't understand Jink counted as a cover save...

I tried just some play testing by myself with six versus nine, and they are comparable in results away from assault....with that many wyches I wouldn't assualt with my reavers anyway.

Korazell wrote:

I think at a increase in points he said he would run three sqauds of six reavers, which honestly I think would serve him well with blasters as they have some good movement to add to range.

Aside from that, replacing the blood-wyches with Incubi isn't a bad idea, honestly, as Blood-brides are not really all that stellar when not given wych weapons. I do agree that templates would be neat but they have a bit of randomness to them and sometimes are either brilliant or lack-luster while wyches have a nice average. I do like them on the talos since it's twin linked, however.

I'm not sold on wracks as units, honestly, as I don't see the benefit to them over others...

But Incubi converted to more wychy standards with the duke could be good too!

Incubi are great but could do with a PGL .

Im not that keen on Reavers :-) To fragile and doesnt work with the snipe at long ranger till they are hurt in 1 area then assault.

I grew to love Wracks after a few things happened a transport blew up , none died , then they put a STR 5 AP1 template on some Terminators and lost no one to the overwatch despite 2 hits.. Try 10 wracks ( 3 in a venom s good too) Its a great unit to cover your HQ..
- you start with a token and hence feel no pain. Very nice to have a save when your transport blows up or you take you pre assault hits.
- they are tougher so better versus Str 4+ gun fire
- They survive their vehicle blowing up
- Liquifier guns .. we lack template weapons . 2 are great .. You have a 75% chance on 2 shots of getting an AP 1-3 template.
- Same number of attacks as wyches but where wyches are good at low Toughness these guys are good killing vs high toughness , and high armour ( due to guns)

I wouldnt use an elite slot for them though true born / Incubi are better.

"Def agree squads of 9 reavers are best, but there never seems to be enough points does there?"!

Reavers are a suicide unit , use it with a shooty army .. Too easy to loose to many kill points in a Short range assault venom army.

Re Master of the fleet . He is just as likely to get the jump on you and when you do your 1 is facing his 2 .

eg you go first

Turn 2
- Your 1 goes on
- His 2 come on and your in trouble
- Your 1 comes on
- His 3rd comes on.

He goes first
- His 2 come on
- Your 1 come on
- His 3rd comes on .
- Your 1 comes on .

But the real issue is he doesnt need his Vendettas he has enough anti tank and its far less points. If your flyers and his are out of it dog fighting for the first 3-4 turns thats good for him . Your Anti tank is your flyers and your Wyches and a good player will neutralize your wyches vs vehicles.

Void Stalker wrote:

@ Bklooste Indeed. Nice suggestions - incubi would be fun to use and I think they're a great unit. In fact I would say that the blood brides in my list are probably the weakest link, due to them not being scoring and just more expensive Wyches!

Korazell is correct however, that I would add x3 units of 6 reavers with blasters at 1850, which is a common tourney standard here.

And on that point, now that I have a little more time to thoroughly explain my list picking choices (for an all comers tourney setting) at any points level, let me present to you my 'ARD' list building philosophy.

ARD List Building

The below should explain my 3 principles that my list was built on and this will also help explain why I don't believe my list is a 'gimmick' list. Gimmick lists usually rely on one trick to deal with an opponent, such as Harlie Stars or Baron leading Razorwing flocks, or Draigo wings etc. These are all good examples of gimmick lists. Gimmick lists can usually be overcome by certain forces easily (heldrake ruins the Baron/Razorwing combo for example). However, when building a list on the following two principles you are building a true 'All Comers' or 'Tournament' list.

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that these principles give you an 'unbeatable' list - they simply give you a list that covers all bases against all opponents.

1. A.I.M. Your list should be split into roughly third proportions to deal with Air. Infantry. Mech. That means that you have paid attention to making sure that you are not caught off guard by any army that spams one of the above types, Tyranids are a classic in my Infantry (very often see multi Tervigon Spawning lists) category for example, whereas Guard can be balanced (what we're going for) or can spam any of the A.I.M categories. Over Spamming in one category classifies you as a 'Gimmick' list, creating potential Rock, Paper, Scissor match ups in a tournament (Necron airforce of x6 night scythes is now nullified by tau lists that have at least two sky fire and intercept wielding rip tides for example), hence we try to equally proportion our answers to A.I.M out.

I dont think your list is Gimicky at all .. You have air , Wyches , Venoms . I just think it can be better vs more lists and tactics.

I disagree you need 1/3 of your army on each but you do need a plan for each...eg at the recent Australian Championship a number of lists had no anit air yet there were quite a lot of air ( 2 Necro Scyth spam , 2 3 * vendetta) . In fact the winner ( Space Wolf) anti air was a Quad gun which Logan manned !


My list guidelines are normally
- Have 2 different strike elements
- Handle multiple opponents eg how do you handle a Demon prince wrapped in a unit with lookout sir
- Have an overall plan ( eg mobile flanking , keep distance weaken them , then assault) all units must work with this plan
- Quantity has a quality of its own .. make sure every item is the good bang for buck yet still meets the above,. the best defence is multiple targets



Ben

@bklooste - it seems that we pretty much have the same principles of list building and I agree on the Guard having the advantage (after all Vendettas were priced for 5th ed rules and are subsequently now grossly under pointed for 6th - nothing we can do until a new codex hits to balance them), I am merely saying that my list has a fighting chance against them and it wouldn't be an 'auto lose' for me.

As for the Space Wolves - quad gun is a classic. I would have destroyed it first turn, like any smart opponent should. I'm willing to bet that his actual air defence was 3 units of long fangs back up by prescience wielding rune priests

Void Stalker wrote:

@ Thanks for that Mushkilla - I may well post it up there then...

It's worth doing. If it generates enough quality discussion it would get added to the pages of pain.

Void Stalker wrote:

Def agree squads of 9 reavers are best, but there never seems to be enough points does there?!

Yeah they aren't cheap, but they bring so many option to the table. 48" movement is a wonderful thing, and their ability to reliably get line breaker and contest an objective are a real boon to most lists.

Void Stalker wrote:

they better hope they are meched up in the first turn,

Why wouldn't they be meched up? It's mech guard, what I mean by mech guard is not a single boot on the ground turn 1. Also three vendetta's at 1500 points is over kill. That's two more chimeras! Actually what is your friends 1500 point guard list?

Void Stalker wrote:

Maybe i'm getting lucky, as I haven't played that many games with the Dark Eldar yet, but whilst I agree, mech guard could be my hardest matchup, I do believe I have a solid list to give them a competitive game.

No I don't think it's luck, in my experience most guard players are terrible and rely on a gimmick to win. Everything fall to pieces as soon as you force them to move.

bklooste wrote:

Reavers are a suicide unit

Couldn't be further from the truth.

bklooste wrote:

I grew to love Wracks

The reason Void isn't running wracks is he needs the haywire wyches for AT. Wracks bring zero AT to the table.

Have to say, in my experience - which is probably a statistical anomaly to a point in that there has been good luck involved - Incubi can do anti-tank in a pinch (particularly with Furious Charge/escorting an HQ with Haywire), and Reavers are anything but fragile. The amounts of AI fire my Reavers have shrugged off is astonishing. Also, the assault option is definitely there, as even in small units they can simply reinforce another Wych unit. In fact, in an army like this, the many small Reaver units is possibly more helpful than big blobs of 9, as they're pretty much always be tag-teaming in combat - more units means more possibilities of having a squad on hand to help out, and it also means they don't need 9.

But boy is 9 fun!

I'm a little late to the discussion. Haven't seen this wonderfull thread somehow.

First and foremost... Void Stalker, congratulations! Must take my hat off to you for showing some of us how to play Dark Eldar. Including me, a so called vet. Haha. In my defence, haven't seen a proper tournament in my life, 'cause i'm afraid of them to be honest.

Then...
How often do people make the mistake of considering each individual model and not the synergy in a list? That is what Void Stalker and Mushkilla (amongst others) are talking about here. Don't expect to trade unit X for unit Y and expect to win. It doesn't work like that. To illustrate further what I mean...

Reavers are suicide units if you make them suicide units. Like, take a unit of 3 to 6 and have them turboboost deep into the enemy's deploymentzone to cause havoc 1 turn.
If you run them like mushkilla however, they are the backbone of your army. Increase effectiveness by upscaling to 9 reavers per unit. And they will destroy vehicles with blasters, kill infantry by bladevaning and contest objectives in turn 5 by turboboosting.

Having said that, I think not relying on a gimmick is the way to go Void Stalker. I agree with your designprinciples. I think your 3 lists looked solid. However, I would lie if I weren't afraid of not having 1st turn anti tank stuff too... I'm glad to see your alternative lists do so well.

I know I'm late to the conversation, but could I ask some questions about your games...

1) Your first battle against Eldar. What turn did you get the Quad Gun? How do you mainly avoid his alpha strike exactly? Staying out of range mainly?

2) Against GK. What do you mean exactly with "Flank the enemy making much of his army ineffective". It seems to be the key to your succes.

3) Against the 1st Tau chap. The deployment was Hammer And Anvil. What suprised me is that you could move 12" with your Venoms and kill his broadsides. Could you please elaborate? My Tau opponents make sure the broadsides are always out of range, deep in cover, etc...

4) 2nd Tau chap again I'm curious as to how you could get his broadsides to quickly. I must be doing something wrong. Can you help me? Weren't you in range of his Firewarriors which shot the hell out of your Wyches and Venoms next turn?

5) This description was very short, so I could ask about everything, but... I think I've bothered you enough. Haha.

So yeah, to summarize. I'm not a complete idiot, but after this I think I should start playing Marines. Lol.

@ Mushkilla and wanderingblade - I quite agree that Reavers are fantastic units. I consider them quite competitive and anything but 'suicide' units. Like everything else in the army they need to be played with finesse (picking the right targets) and played with my Redundancy principle. At 1750 I include 3 units of x3. If I had more points, there would be more Reavers. Simple as that

My friend's guard list changes slightly every now and then but here is the list he has been running:

3 Vendettas
3 Vet squads with double melta (in the vendettas)
1 infantry platoon. (various heavy weapons)
1 commissar HQ (if I recall correctly)
3 Battle Tanks (sometimes switched or mixed with Demoloisher tanks) - all with camo netting.
1 Aegis Defence Line with comms relay for reserves.

Everything sits behind a defence line and all the tanks have a 3++ save with the camo netting. He has also switched this by removing the infantry platoon and having vets squads start in a couple of chimeras instead (so the more classic full mech as you explained), all pretty nasty stuff really.

@ tlronin - Thanks for your congratulations! As I have pointed out with other fellows in the forum, I agree that Reavers or any unit in the Dark Eldar army for that matter, need to be played well in order to not exploit their weaknesses or be thrown away as 'suicide' units.

You came up with quite a few questions so I'll try and address them!

1) Against the Eldar, I destroyed the quad gun in my first turn. I ALWAYS, destroy the quad gun in the first turn against any opponent. It's too easy with all my venoms.

2) By the 'flanking the enemy', I mean deploying so that half or more of their army is out of engagement range with you. This is quite easy to do against mid range armies such as grey knights and necrons. If they have rolled for first turn, you can see where they deploy and literally plonk yourself to their right or left out of range with the majority (if not all) of their units in the first turn. Remember that their effective range is often 30" (24" tesla destructors, psycannons etc + 6" move), where our effective range is 48", as venoms have a 12" move +36" splinter cannons

3) No matter what the setup is, you can always deploy 12" from the centre of the table, making you effectively 36" away from the opponents board edge. The Tau player (like all of them) back lined his broadsides in cover, with his fire warriors effectively bubble wrapping them behind a defence line in front of them. Now in this game I thought I was going first, so I didn't know where he would deploy, but had a good idea as he had to deploy his defence line (which he deployed back deep in his deployment zone) first. When you are deploying first with Dark Eldar, I always deploy centre midfield and 7" back, as this means that I can't be flanked (due to my speed) and I threaten the entire table from turn 1. This also means that if he deployed further back, he would be out of range with his marker lights and his pulse rifles first turn but either way, with my effective 48" range, he really had nowhere to hide so to speak He still stole my initiative though, the swine...

4) 2nd Tau chap. To answer the majority of your question see point 3. Deploy centre midfield 7" back and you will be out of range of most small arms gun lines that deploy back line, whilst remaining in attack range yourself for your first turn. Now to address the other point. Yes, I was in range with his fire warriors in my second turn. But bear in mind, I wasn't in rapid fire range. He had 3 units of warriors and a Hammerhead at this point to retaliate with. That's a maximum of 4 targets he can down and he would be very lucky to down 4 venoms after I take into account my cover/flicker field saves etc. He ended up downing 2 and wasting lots of shots on trying to kill the Duke. Why? Because I had flat out moved the Duke in my first turn, right into his lines. This is a psychological assault for my opponent, as he knows that if he doesn't destroy the venom, followed by the blood brides and then the duke, I will be into his gunline ripping them apart. Since the Duke has a 2++ shadow field, I am happy for opponents to wast much of their fire power trying to kill him, if it means protecting the majority of my scoring units (and the real threat of my army) for another turn

I mean think about... 3 units of fire warriors and a Broadside. It takes one unit to rapid fire and bring down the venom. Then another unit will open up to finish the blood brides and hopefully bring the duke down, but in reality, it would have required about 3 units worth of fire power to kill him - protecting most of my army from harm!! In the end he expended 2 fire warrior units to down the dukes venom and kill his bodyguard (still leaving the Duke alive!), whilst his Hammerhead destroyed a wych venom and his last fire warrior unit stripped a hull point from another. All in all, a pretty ineffectual turn for him, allowing me to steamroll him in my turn 2.

Hope that helps summarise some of my tactics!

@wanderingblade - You dice clearly are blessed with your incubi!! i'm happy to send you my address if you could pop your dice into the post for me. Much appreciated thank you