1850pts tournament CTC with Eldar Allies, now featuring Grotesqurie

I'd like to see how it turned out, too.

Hi,

So short batrep, bit edited from first draft can be found under:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1T98r48nm_g_MPkTvY2wZg9efC5OqUmrPyuIpBOi4YvY/edit?usp=sharing

It is bit messy I am sorry.

Short recap:
Initial hope was to get first turn deploy all and wreck face first turn, and if dice gods so bid also get infiltrate from strategic.
I did get to choose table side, opponent goes first. I roll for strategic getting infiltrate strategic warlord trait with reroll lucky me. I depo second and push WG with scythes and taloi as far forward as possible ->18".
Then I roll for seize and get that lucky "6"!

Turn 1a Eldar
Opponent knows what I am packing in that Wave serpent that is 18" from his hellhammer. WS moves 6", WG disembark 6" behind a building. Taloi move 6".
Come Shooting phase and WG scorch hellhammer getting 4 hits yelding 9 HP removed causing explosion. The biggest threat eliminated. Lucky me again as I didn't have anything else that could have caused same kind of dent with one shooting against it.
I score one maelstorm card, first blood

Turn 1b IG
Except Wyverns shooting at taloi and 1 wyvern and half of the company shooting at WG nothing much happened. WG were left with one model. Opponent scores one maelstorm card worth 2 points

Turn 2a
Reserves again some lucky rolling. I have 5 units in reservers: 3 bike squads, warp spiders and swooping hawks with autarch the warlord. All others except the swooping hawks and autarch come from the reserves. I deploy so that the opponent cannot intercept with quad cannon.
I shoot 2 hp from taurox, one wyvern, one chimera, and one hp from wyvern with warp spiders and bikes. Dark reapers destroy taurox from middle field, WS wrecks one command squad with master of fleet. Shadow weavers kill one master of the fleet. Taloi move and charge two units killing them both after they choose to fail morale and are caught. WG charge ig squad.
Two maelstorms worth 3 points
Turn 2b
A lot of shooting causing not a lot, one hp from taloi, 2 jetbikes removed, one more hp from WS and removing TL SL weapon. Still getting 6 orders and killing a unit (wg) claiming two maelstorms points.

Turn 3a
Reserves: Swooping hawks come on rerolled reserve.
Swooping hawks drop large granade pack behind aegis killing 4 models, Shadow weavers finish off warlord and master of the fleet. Bikes finish off wyvern, Warp spiders wreck the other. WS shoots group of ig with lascannon clearing it but leaving few stranded lasguns around and swooping hawks shoot group squad of IG with two meltas finishing them off. Dark reapers try to destroy Quad gun only causing 1 unsaved wound. Taloi move and charge causing it to rout of out table.
Warlord, and one maelstorm or two
Turn 3b
Shriek kills one taloi, meltas take two wounds out of second one. Rest of the shooting remove one remainder bike, swooping hawk exarch with lascannon and one swooping hawk.
One maelstorm and hand shake.

We end up game with me having one maelstorm more, ~1200points on table, and in practice tabling in turn 5 would have been quite probable. I dare say that the end result was turned into my favor by lucky seize and very lucky reserve rolls. On the other hand it went according to plan 'b'. Comms relay worked wonders I must say. I made few errors, failing target priority trying to fish 6's from pen rolls. From the enemies side I one err of his was diving lascannons to multiple units causing target problems and big egg in one basket (thou I got lucky exceeding expected amount of hull points removed by 2,5 points before rolling for pens[sixes for explosion]). He passed almost all leadership tests including orders getting lot of monster hunters and ignore covers every turn. Shooting was erratic with divided shooting efforts. Also he got relatively lucky with spykers not getting perils of the warp even once while throwing 5-7 dice per power. I wish I was so lucky
I'd say dice were on my side that day.

Something about the units in general and in this game
Normally Swooping hawks would not work so well against e.g marines due high armor save. My personal experience is that they never fulfill expectations against marines. They did well in this game due low armour save of the IG squads.

Taloi did not kill they 'worth' but gained 3 vp's and shrugged off ton of shooting the TL splinter cannons were under utilized as shooting would mean further charge distances, on the other hand 635 points could be used more 'effectively' to cause critical parts of the enemy force to break/deleted. While I can see myself using them again the tournament point system awards 2 points from kill points being tertiary mission. I am not convinced that alone is enough to sustify using CTC to get an edge on the KP mission.

Bunkers void shield is probably for naught. Way to get rerolls to reserves would be to drop the void shield or switch to aegis defence line to save 10 points from one barricade and 5 from fortication. Personally I think situational and bunker actually gives one 'trustworth' LOS blocking element for the tournament which is something you can rely on. I am still on the fence on that. On the other hand if I am using dark reapers they give them good shooting place while lending them good safe place and to be annoyance to enemy. Usually I wouldn't expect -3 to reserve roll manipulation from enemy, but having that reroll in place and not having to roll for it from strategic gives more options.

WG scythes work almost always, one can roll badly and you never get those remove from play but still extremely reliable and take shooting to take down.

Jet Bikes - I usually play with 3 or 6 sl bikes, and 8 sl bikes that I used is maximum I have ever used. They did work as expected. Rain or shine squad of 3 to reliable take 2 hp from av 11 is great asset.

Shadow weavers - nothing special to write home about, my experience with them is erratic. Sometimes rending IC to death but usually scattering off the target. Great for holding objectives with in practice 3 T7 wounds.

Dark reapers - my go to unit for reliable but expensive shooting. I like taking one with starshot and one with normal missiles in units of two and an exarch.

WS - also my go to unit for unit worth it's point in sustainability. Gets expensive with upgrades but still gets whine from marine players for being so op gun boat. I pay for mine, you get your bawkses free... end of rant...

Warp spiders- Good for busting vehicles, I have a bad habit of scattering them to death or getting them placed by opponent to far side of the table. Last game I got 'lucky'. Flicker jump shenigans are golden with los blocking environment and in close proximity of enemy models with against blast weapons. Worth their points and some.

Thoughts for next game:
Depending what I have time to finish, I think I am going to try two wwp strategy but might be that with normal DE CAD. I haven't made list yet but two wg scythes will make an appearance I am 70% sure.

I want to thank all for contributing This far. I will update on this topic also the proceedings and next iterated list that will follow BetrayTheWorlds proposed idea. Also I want to thank for the support, you have been most kind.

WildCandy

You're very welcome! Glad to hear your list worked out well. Keep us posted on how you do next time around!

Happy New Year!

the list I am considering for next test game is following:
Eldar CAD
HQ:
Autarch Banshee mask, bike, laser lance 100pts
Farseer, bike, singing spear 120 pts
Elites:
WG with scythes x5 + Wave serpent with TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken cannon and Ghostwalk matrix 345 pts

Troops:
2x3 Windriders with scatter lasers 162 pts
1x3 windriders 2 with scatter lasers, one with tl shuriken catapult and warlock with singing spear (unit that Farseer and in some cases also autarch joins) 126pts

Fast attack:
Hemlock 185 pts
Hornet squadron with pulse lasers 160pts

Heavy support:
Dark reapers x2 with startshot missiles and exarch with EML 126pts (embark into Bunker)
2x1 Vauls wrath support battery with shadow weaver 60pts

Fortification: (Comment I am on the fence on this as when going first this is mostly unneeded)
Wall of martys imperial Bunker with barricades and Comms relay (85pts)
Barricades give 4+ cover save to the bunker and good place for the dark reapers to shoot from also give reliable LOS blocking element on the field
When needed e.g. group of grots can use the comms relay to reroll reserves. Normally shadow weavers.

Dark Eldar:
Grotesquerie 440pts
Grotesques x3 160pts + Raider with disintegrator 55pts
Grotesques x3 160pts
Haemonculus with WWP and Scissorhands 115pts, I am bit on the fence if I should upgrade other group with aberration for challenge tricks.

Depending on the opponent and warlord trait rolled, it might be sensible to drop the other raider and take e.g. two shadow weavers to use the comms relay and have quite reliable cheap cannon fodder for drop pod assault. If no infiltrate from strategic is rolled then Grots will have to walk or wwp with haemy and Autarch, if Infiltrate is rolled then WG scythes and WS can outflank or infiltrate to 18" to enemy main target and deliver the payload that way. If needed also WWP with WG scythes is available in the realm of options. With comms relay used by shadow weaver and bunker and deploying grots even if going second there is a good chance to last until turn 2 when mostly rerollable 2+ reserves would come in and beta strike. This would allow also 'null deployment' method against Grav drop pod alfa strike.

How does it sound?

I think it sounds pretty good, with a couple things to note:

1. I think you could probably do without the wave serpent, since you have a setup to allow you to WWP them in without scatter. With all your reserves bonuses, it's pretty reliable. I'd just have that be your primary plan.

2. I've never really understood the value of a ghostwalk matrix on most eldar vehicles because they're skimmers, so they ignore intervening terrain when moving through it, and don't have to roll to move through cover anyhow. It's only useful on walkers, unless I've missed something.

3. With the points you save from 1 + 2, I'd get a second raider for your grots. When you go first, you can put them on the table and push them 30" into your opponent's face on turn 1, and when you go second, you can hide them behind LoS terrain to zoom out after their turn, or deep strike them. In either case, I'd upgrade each of them to have an aberration with an agonizer. Some people like the scissorhand, but the reliability of the agonizer's AP3, along with the rerolls of wounds against anything T4 or lower is a clincher to choose the agonizer, in my opinion. They'll walk through squads of MEQ or even jetbike marines with ease. Don't forget their rampage rule!

Hope that helps! Good luck!

Thank you for the comments BetraytheWorld,
appreciate your insights yet again

"1. I think you could probably do without the wave serpent, since you have a setup to allow you to WWP them in without scatter. With all your reserves bonuses, it's pretty reliable. I'd just have that be your primary plan."
True, Thou personally I like that WS brings resiliency on the table and ignore cover serpent shield that can be used to take out far away antitank units out hiding in cover (only works reliably against tau some units and IG). WS doesn't have Obsec in this configuration so not so perfect transport but reliable gun boat thou on the expensive side. On the other side using WG's in WS may open possibility of turn 1 alfa strike with small risk of being focused down, compared to turn 2 beta strike with also a small risk but better possibility for more collateral damage or forcing enemy to spread out to minimize collateral damage opening me to exploit mobility to focus one flank at a time. Soo in tournament setting I could very well lean on the turn 2 beta strike option.

"2. I've never really understood the value of a ghostwalk matrix on most eldar vehicles because they're skimmers, so they ignore intervening terrain when moving through it, and don't have to roll to move through cover anyhow. It's only useful on walkers, unless I've missed something."
Personally I tend to park WS into cover if possible (inside a building) so even deep striking units have to try to find a way to shoot the WS without letting it get a cover save. Leaving and landing in cover do not cause the dangerous terrain check is good and allows to pick straightest route to enemy and allows effective disembark to terrain. I have a tendency of rolling those "ones". Ghost walk matrix is situational but usually e.g. running fire dragons or WG scythes is a extra warranty not to get stranded on depo zone.
I never taken one for war walkers thou.

"3. With the points you save from 1 + 2, I'd get a second raider for your grots. When you go first, you can put them on the table and push them 30" into your opponent's face on turn 1, and when you go second, you can hide them behind LoS terrain to zoom out after their turn, or deep strike them. In either case, I'd upgrade each of them to have an aberration with an agonizer. Some people like the scissorhand, but the reliability of the agonizer's AP3, along with the rerolls of wounds against anything T4 or lower is a clincher to choose the agonizer, in my opinion. They'll walk through squads of MEQ or even jetbike marines with ease. Don't forget their rampage rule!"
It'll make the Aberration expensive 70 pts per one. It is a good weapon, scissorhands in 10 pts vs 25pts for agonizer. Both are poison so rerolls are a-ok. For my personal taste it would make the unit and especially the aberration expensive for my taste, but would generate alot of threat.
What I am thinking is that the units that it will have most troubles against anyway TWC, Wulfen, Rending GSC unit blobs, it does not benefit much from it against them and they will kill the unit anyhow. This is just personal view without play experience with Grots so hard to say. Threat factor would be good as it takes pressure off other units.
Cost per wound ratio will go up with agonizer compared to scissorhands, if I remember math agonizer is to pay for 1 more MEQ killed per turn in combat and losing half TEQ killed per turn compared scissorhands. Scissors also give some utility against vehicles, thou not much. Charging grots to TEQ's is probably bad idea anyway if not to just tie them up.
I am still undecided on this. The Raider is given considering WWP:ng with WG scythes, but the rest 70pts can do so much more also else where. Need to do some list tweaking

Thanks for the great support BetraytheWorld. Next test game is 15th of January where I will be trying out this format. Thank you for leading me to this direction as well. I am excited to try something new again!

WildCandy

Couldn't sadly find the forum post of the different (grot) melee weapons loadout calculations. Mathematically it might be as sensible to add another Grot to the 3-> 4 grots than taking aberration and agonizer? More HP, more survivability and more hits. Still wounding most on 3+ and rerolling.

Would I want to find that post now wouldn't I...

This: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11195-flesh-gauntlet
Wasn't only about grots so was hard to find.

WildCandy

The only statistics I saw in that thread were from Thor showing that aberrations with scissorhands are better vs. termies than aberrations with agonizers, which I could have told you without looking at that.

The thing is, your list has multiple D-scythe attacks that are perfect for dealing with elite infantry like termies. That and superheavy/gargantuans are what those are for, really. So since you've got that role filled already, I think you'd be better off with an agonizer. Here is the math on 4 grots vs 3 grots(with an aggy abby):

4 Grots against:

Guardsmen: 10.35 (24 attacks, 15.98 hits, 15.54 wounds, 10.35 unsaved wounds)
Marines: 3.55 (24 attacks, 12 hits, 10.66 wounds, 3.55 unsaved wounds)

3 Grots(w/Aggy Aberration) against:

Guardsmen: 9.70 (19 attacks, 12.65 hits, 12.30 wounds, 9.70 unsaved)
Marines: 4.89 (19 attacks, 9.5 hits, 8.44 wounds, 4.89 unsaved)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


As you can see, the Agonizer aberration far outclasses the extra grot against marines, and even does an extra 20% unsaved wounds against GEQ. If you were designing this to be a general utility tool that you might want to consider taking against termies, I'd probably agree with Thor and suggest taking the scissorhand instead, but you have your AP2 covered with ignores cover template D weapons, one of which has access to scatterless deep strike for maximum precision.

Also, I don't generally think grots are a good unit to take against termies, as a general rule. They aren't naturally good at dealing with them. Even with the scissorhand rending, they only marginally get better, since rends only happen on a 6, making them kill 2.2 termies instead of 1.8. On the other hand, 4 auto-hitting D-templates(that's the number that can shoot when you deep strike) can probably kill 10 termies.

The only time I might suggest taking the extra grot instead would be if you knew for sure you'd be facing a much higher than usual ammount of GEQ, and then only because the extra wounds against overwatch would probably be a bigger factor than the extra 20% damage output. But as it stand, with so many marines in the meta, I think an agonizer is a no-brainer.

Great! This is what I wanted to see, great that you had it or calculated it on the fly. I can stand on my head but not argue with math!

I will readjust the list, thou I might add add grot and aberration to one and leave other untouched if I can also fill night shields on the bigger groups raider. I like warranties Thou according to the math one aberration with aggie can do lifting of at least 2 normal grots.

Many thanks again for pointing out a flaw!

I apologize. Upon looking at this again, my math was incorrect. I had run the entire squad as having AP3 instead of only the aberration. I fixed it, and this has narrowed the numbers. I fixed the numbers in my previous post above, but this is basically how it breaks down:

More grotesques are best against GEQ.
Aberrations with Agonizers are best against MEQ.
Aberrations with scissorhands are best against TEQ.

I personally find the MEQ option to be the most flexible, because the scissorhand option still doesn't make them that great at killing TEQ, and against GEQ, grotesques are going to win regardless of what loadout they're using.

Hi BetraytheWorld,

Nice that you noticed!

Did some additional calculations based on your calculations. Just to fulfill my curiosity bone.

All with rampage (2 attakcs), no charge, furious charge or rolling +S from latest experiments would of course help. Quoted also BetraytheWorlds calculations of which the rest of the calculations are based on. If the math holds up to discrimination; Yes aggie Abbie is the most point efficient to killing marines and quite point efficient killing guardsmen too.

1 Grot against 35pts:

Guardsmen: 2.59 () 13.5pts/wound
Marines: 0.875 () 40pts/wound
TEQ/terminators: 0.33 (6 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 0.33 unsaved) 106 pts/wound

Aberration with Aggy 70pts:
Guardsmen: 4.525 (7 attacks, 4.66 hits, 4.53 wounds, 4.525 unsaved) 15.5 pts/wound
Marines: 3.11 (7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 3.11 wounds, 3.11 unsaved) 22.5 pts/wound
TEQ: 0.518 () 135 pts/wound

Aberration with scissorhands 55pts:
Guardsmen: 3.28 (7 attacks, 4.66 hits, 4.53 wounds (0.776 rending), 3.28 unsaved) 16.8pts/wound
Marines: 1.38 (7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 3.11 wounds (0.519 rending), 1.38 unsaved) 39,9pts/wound
TEQ: 0.778 (7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 3.11 wounds (0.519 rending), 0.432(2+ armour) + 0.346(5+ invu) = 0.778 unsaved) 70pts/wound

2 Grots against:

Guardsmen: 5.175 (12 attacks, 7.99 hits, 7.77 wounds, 5.175 unsaved wounds)
Marines: 1.75 (12 attacks, 6 hits, 5.33 wounds, 1.75 unsaved wounds)
TEQ: 0.66

4 Grots against:

Guardsmen: 10.35 (24 attacks, 15.98 hits, 15.54 wounds, 10.35 unsaved wounds)
Marines: 3.55 (24 attacks, 12 hits, 10.66 wounds, 3.55 unsaved wounds)
TEQ: 1.32

3 Grots(w/Aggy Aberration) against 140pts:

Guardsmen: 9.70 (19 attacks, 12.65 hits, 12.30 wounds, 9.70 unsaved) 14.43pts/wound
Marines: 4.89 (19 attacks, 9.5 hits, 8.44 wounds, 4.89 unsaved) 28.63pts/wound
TEQ: 1.178 () 118.85pts/wound

3 Grots (w/scissor Abbie) against 125pts:

Guardsmen: 8.455 () 14.78pts/wound
Marines: 3.13 () 39.94pts/wound
TEQ: 1.438 () 86.93pts/wound

Bit surprisingly to me Aggie is cost efficient upgrade not considering the life time expectancy aspects. And against Marines and guardsmen much more cost efficient than scissorhands.

Yeah, aggie is definitely not a bad idea. The extra body is good for more wounds, but also makes you less likely to trigger the rampage special rule by being outnumbered, particularly in situations where there will be an independent character tagging along with the grots(making the unit have 5). In that case, the extra attacks lost from the extra grot actually significantly hampers their effectiveness.

Either way, let us know what list you decide to use, and how it all goes!

Thanks again for the support and comments!

My next game I plan to use following:
Eldar Cad
HQ (220pts)
Autarch (100pts)
Banshee Mask, Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Shuriken Pistol

Farseer (120pts)
Eldar Jetbike, Singing Spear

Elites (210pts)
Wraithguard (210pts) - sucker punch
D-Scythe, 5x Wraithguard

Troops (288pts)
Windriders (81pts)
3x Windrider w/ Scatter Laser

Windriders (81pts)
3x Windrider w/ Scatter Laser

Windriders (126pts)
Windrider w/ Twin-linked Shuriken Catapult
2x Windrider w/ Scatter Laser
Windrider Warlock
Singing Spear

Fast Attack (345pts)
Hemlock Wraithfighter (185pts)

Hornet Squadron [FW] (160pts)
Hornet
2x Pulse Laser
Hornet
2x Pulse Laser

Heavy Support (194pts)
Dark Reapers (134pts)
2x Dark Reaper, Starshot Missiles
Dark Reaper Exarch
Eldar Missile Launcher

Vaul's Wrath Support Battery (30pts)
Shadow Weaver, Support Weapon

Vaul's Wrath Support Battery (30pts)
Shadow Weaver, Support Weapon

Fortification (85pts)
Wall of Martyrs Imperial Bunker (85pts)
Barricades, Comms Relay

Formation Detachment (Dark Eldar: Supplement - Haemonculus Covens v2001) (505pts)
Formation (505pts)
Formation: Grotesquerie (505pts)
Grotesques - Marine killers and IC hunters
Aberration
Agoniser
3x Grotesque
Raider
Disintegrator

Grotesques - Mopup/overwatch/speed bump
3x Grotesque
Raider
Disintegrator

Haemonculus
Close combat weapon, Scissorhand, Splinter Pistol, Webway portal (joining WG scythes)

Thanks for noticing the rampage part: I do not plan to attach IC's is normal cases to the Grots. Maybe after few turns depending if the autarch is still on the table.

Much in the line with previous. Depending on the situation Farseer and Autarch might join WG and Haemy and then break off, especially if it is possible to give good blow to the enemy and chances of retributal are low after wards. Attaching both would allow 5 scythes to shoot or put autarch in front to take the heat of returning fire.

Very probably rolling strategic and hoping for infiltrate or conqueror of cities or night fighter depending on the setup of the table. Next test game is in about a week and a half, time to build, paint and base models

With Best WildCandy

What is the point of Shred on the latest experiments, they are rerolling wounds against all but MC's and GMC...

Yeah, not a good result. It's sort of like +1 initiative for DE drugs table...they already have higher initiative than everyone else.

Anyhow, the list looks pretty good. Looking forward to hearing how you do with it! Keep that 12" -1 leadership aura in mind when your opponent is making their morale checks! It's easy to forget about when it's not the focus of your list, or maybe I'm just old and forgetful.

Either way, good luck!

Thanks, I will keep you updated how the next test game goes. I still see some possible places of improvement in the list or maybe they are just that I'd fancy more of shooting. Next game will probably be against SW which will not be the easiest target for Grots, so if they can succeed against TWC and wulfen glazed list I can quite reliably put them against other things

I plan to make an turn by turn check list for first games at least to keep in me track of e.g. leadership debuff aura and PFP table. Especially remembering the aura is important when using shriek and causing morale breaks with Hemlock also in the range. -3LD is already something for many nonmarine factions to get them run out of board or out of position.

Btw. I am bit confused about the fear and if Marines actually take fear tests. Some in our local group are in mind that the fear test has to be taken and marines can fail it, but to my understanding they should auto pass it.

Betraytheworld, I can see you have a banner about list building competition, is there a forum link where the lists are?

WildCandy wrote:

Btw. I am bit confused about the fear and if Marines actually take fear tests. Some in our local group are in mind that the fear test has to be taken and marines can fail it, but to my understanding they should auto pass it.

You're right. They automatically pass it as long as they have "And they shall know no fear" as a special rule. Some marine units, like scouts, don't have it. They also automatically pass regroup tests, but the negative leadership is still good against them for morale tests(they can still run off the table before they get a chance to regroup, or get forced out of position), psychic shrieks, and pinning tests.

WildCandy wrote:

Betraytheworld, I can see you have a banner about list building competition, is there a forum link where the lists are?

I don't know exactly where they are now, to be honest. I've made lots of lists here, though. I stopped posting my own lists here when I'm pretty sure someone poached one of my rather unique lists from here and ended up winning a major tournament with it. I don't recall exactly which list it was, but that day I decided not to post my lists online any more until I had already used them in large tournaments, and only then if I placed(making the list public knowledge anyhow).

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

You're right. They automatically pass it as long as they have "And they shall know no fear" as a special rule. Some marine units, like scouts, don't have it.

thank you for the clarification and good notice that scouts do not benefit from all the atsknf bonuses.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I don't know exactly where they are now, to be honest. I've made lots of lists here, though. I stopped posting my own lists here when I'm pretty sure someone poached one of my rather unique lists from here and ended up winning a major tournament with it. I don't recall exactly which list it was, but that day I decided not to post my lists online any more until I had already used them in large tournaments, and only then if I placed(making the list public knowledge anyhow).

I found one list from 2014 with lot of vauls wrath batteries and wg scythe with eldrad and friends. Tactic was built around static vauls batteries and grotesquerie as well as deathstar of sorts going about. All in all looked very novel list! Some aspects were similar to the list you proposed earlier. Using goi solves mobility problem.

What a bummer on the list thieving

Looking at many of the lists 2x wwp wg scythe strategy starts to sound better... Personal problem for me is that I do not want tobuse normally more than 250pts on hq. If you have had good results with hq heavy lists. I mihht need to reconsider

Hope you got at least thanks for the list thief...

Actually, if the list thief would have posted a thanks, I wouldn't have been upset. The fact that he won a major national US tournament with it and I didn't get so much as a nod is why I had an issue with it. I mean, I DID post the list here online, so I couldn't be upset at anyone for using it. Only that they didn't share credit.

As for high HQ costs, I routinely use psychic deathstars that are 750+ points in a single unit, but I also play a lot of craftworld eldar. I tend to make up for that huge point investment by using value units elsewhere, like Vaul's batteries. They're very undervalued at 30 points each per battery(both vibro and shadow weavers).

Since each battery comes with 2 guardians and a gun, that means each gun is only 12 points. That's cheaper than any of the weapon platforms guardians normally have available, the weapon is better, it adds 2 wounds and a 3+ armour save to the unit, and it makes your guardians T7 against shooting. Best 12 points ever.

I also think windriders are very good, but I almost never use them with scatter lasers. They're our best objective secured unit, since they can reach basically any point on the table in a single turn. Because of that very valuable talent, I prefer to keep them both cheap and non-threatening with no upgrades so that my opponent focuses his firepower elsewhere while they score. When they have weapon upgrades, opponents tend to shoot them.

If I were to play pure DE, I'd spend far fewer points on HQs because they don't really add much to a DE army, unfortunately. The coolest thing they do(WWPs) is only really useful to highly destructive individual units, which we don't have.

2 WWP d-scythe wraithguard can be devastating, but they're very expensive to field, so if you run something like that, you generally need to cut points elsewhere and buy value units like the vaul's batteries I mentioned.

To come back to the list tests. I had two

First was against SW "Company of the Great wulf" list with
IK with somekind of super autocannon and melta and melta large blast
2x Wulfenx5 of which 3 had a shield, two hammers, two axes and claws In drop pods
TWC group of 3 with wulves
Some semicaptain on TWC with 3+armour and 6+ invu and lightning claws
Iron priest with cyberwulf
10 grey hunters with 3 meltas and sergeant.

The game was a loss, tight one but mostly due my lack of experience running against wulfen and twc mobility. I lost hornets to TWC, grots to Wulfen ( I did charge horrible mistake). Wulfen rolled 3+ invus and FNP 5+ like pro's. Wulfen continued to remove units from table without good mobility.

The game ended on turn 5, I eternal war due not thinking ahead and I came off objectives for next turn potential tabling. The game ended me having all my jetbikes on the table and hemlock. SW had 2wulfen one with shield, and 3 drop pods on the table. Maelstorm tied due the remove hp's from LOW rule. It was a good game I learned alot due bad rolls and bad table control. It would have been possible to get a win with just few small moves, taking IC's apart from groups to claim objective. Best fun fact was that it is possible to fail 2+ rerollable reserve roll two turns a row Slim as the chance is...

The second game was against CSM nurgle with Nurgle demon allies. That was a sweep. Dscythes did their work against HQ units, grots shined against the demons, not so much against the marines but did grind their way through. Psychics mainly failed or didn't produce any benefits. Enemy conceded after turn 3b with 5 marines, 3 plague bearers and one plague drone on the table. My losses were group of jetbikes, warlock on jetbike, jetbike with shuriken catapult and 3 grots. Not very even game that. I did get few learning points from that game e.g. not to baby sit the dscythes after they have wwp:d, better to drop them where they can affect game after their arrivival rather than minimizing the risk of return fire. Nurgle units were quite 'hardy' with fnp and t5-t6 units, but lacked long range punch.

Considering the list I am currently looking critically to Warlock on bike, also dropping one grot from one of the groups and exchanging him for agonizer aberration for the other group might be well worth it like discussed with BetrayTheWorld. I somehow feel that I am not getting the punch from Dark reapers, so I have been playing around with idea to change comms relay + EML to Quad cannon to get better Antiair, give Exarch starshot missiles. The warlock could be exchanged for war walker with Scatter lasers outflanking or group of Dire avengers. But it would give bit more manpower to the list.

This would be surely felt at reserve manipulation forcing me to fish for reroll reserves Warlord trait and/or Divinination spell 6 for farseer at times.

Bunker works well, no one has shot the bunker, the wulfen just assaulted it to pieces.
Dscythes work well except high invu saves. And 5 get to shoot when autarch joins the group, and can split next turn to tie some shooty unit up.
Hemlock is good, even when jinking it can do something in psychic phase.
The group of jetbikes with warlock and farseer joined and with two scatter lasers and shuriken catapult usually misses in part of their shooting due that I baby sit the Farseer maybe bit tad too much. I could drop two of the SL's and save 20 points here.

Any ideas?

WildCandy wrote:

not to baby sit the dscythes after they have wwp:d, better to drop them where they can affect game after their arrivival rather than minimizing the risk of return fire.

Yeah, this is a good lesson to learn. Their place is right up in the mix of things. They're killy and super tough, so you don't want them away from the action unless they're locking down a super-important objective after removing a very tough enemy that used to be there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wouldn't get the quad gun in exchange for the comms relay and EML. You're giving up too much there, in my opinion. Instead, you can accomplish the same thing by combining your 2 other suggestions:

Drop 2 scatter lasers and the warlock. That leaves you with 78 available points. I'd free up another 12 and just add a warwalker with 2 eldar missile launchers. That gives you the additional anti-air firepower you're missing while still being useful against non-flyer stuff in the event your opponent doesn't bring air.

Things you could remove to get the extra 12 points:

Scatter lasers, Singing spear on farseer, Scissorhand, or a barricade section.

The list is pretty tight. Losing every one of those upgrades hurts. That means you're doing it right.

Great points again BetrayTheWorld! Yeah, lose points are like found money at this point I'll do some points digging.

Hoping to get at least one train game before the tournament. I'll put updated list up soonish. I am bit tempted to chicel the points from agonizer to get the war walker with EML's. Decisions, Decisions...