Is it just me, or are eldar rubbish?

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The important part is they are troops, all they need to do is hold that midfield objective/or get the relic. That in itself gives you an objective and allows you to control the centre of the board creating a 24-36" diameter bubble of area denial in the middle of the table. The same principle that make talos so effective despite their 6" move.

Quite true, Mush - I didnt really consider them in that aspect. However, listed as they were with minimal upgrades to the W-lords to save points, you've only got 3 shuriken cannons with a 24" range, everything else is 12 or melee. While the S. cannons can pose a pretty great threat to any of our vehicles, there are so few of them supported by only shorter ranged weaponry, that it should still be relatively easy to pick them off while negating or limiting their threat to our guns. After that, its just a turkey shoot. A high toughness, high armour save (possibly with re-rolls)turkey shoot, but that is precisely what splinter cannons excel at killing. Its as easy to wound a vanilla marine with a splinter cannon as it is to wound a wraithguard or wraithlord (assuming they arent buffed by a farseer)

So all in all, yes they are an extremely powerful combo. Yes, they will require most of your attention to take out. Yes if you should get anything within 18" of them - its more than likely dead. But, and especially considering how much that combo costs (915 pts by my count, including min. upgrades & a farseer w/ fortune), it represents a huge amount of their force that you can safely ignore until any other threats have been dealt with and then whittle down with shooting - if they are in danger of capturing too many objectives, then charge a unit of wyches or two into the wraithguard and avatar to stall them for a couple turns - 4++ ftw.

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The important part is they are troops, all they need to do is hold that midfield objective/or get the relic.

However, at least discounting any wraithseer special rules or all wraithguard army list which may or may not exist - Im just not aware of one, none of those are troop choices so its kind of a moot point anyway.

I guess I can see how my argument is precisely why they would make such good allies with DE - because the only things that can really negate their effectiveness are other DE (or tau). Would make for an interesting set of tactics with a pretty static wraith-star crawling down center field supported by some hyper-mobile DE.

Misunderstanding on my part, I was just talking about 10 wraith guard with a warlock(they become troops when taken in squads of 10), baron and a farseer. Expensive sure, but it does give you a scoring unit with 16 T6 wounds (including baron, farseer, and warlock), with 3+ saves, 4+ cover saves in the open (conceal + stealth), re-rollable-saves thanks to fortune, fearless, hit and run, assault and defensive grenades, and guns that make units disappear. Does come to around 600pts or more depending on what you give the farseer but it's a hell of a unit, and it's only around 500points of allies (not including the baron) and meets all the requirements for an allied detachment (HQ + TROOP).

Pauks818 wrote:

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The important part is they are troops, all they need to do is hold that midfield objective/or get the relic.

However, at least discounting any wraithseer special rules or all wraithguard army list which may or may not exist - Im just not aware of one, none of those are troop choices so its kind of a moot point anyway.

Units of 10 Wraithguard accompanied by a Warlock are Troop choices in the Eldar Codex. Must admit, I only found that out recently though.

Pauks818 wrote:

I must admit, after looking over the Eldar codex as an ally option for my DE (seeing as they are the only BB allies & everyone seems to be raving about the farseer) I can pretty say the best option I would consider (read only option) are the guardian jetbikes - 66 points for a more or less guranteed captured or contested objective at end of game is just ridiculous.

However beyond that, I think they are a laughably poor choice - as have been said, many models are just outdated, and any of those remaining that could still be useful (maybe fire dragons) can be compensated for with some blasterborn with a faster transport for alot cheaper.

Even the fabled & revered farseer is only terribly useful against whatever psykers your enemy has (likely just 1 or 2) unless you spend an ungodly amount of points on psychic powers for him/her.

Shadows is here to educate the masses!!!!

The farseer gives you re-rolls to hit in for shooting or and close combat attacks or re-roll to wound. Add in that every other army than tau almost always relies on a psyker to buff their squads, and a simple farseer with an upgrade completely removes him from the game (no one likes to see their psyker go pop) is a huge factor in any game.

Fire dragons are 100 times better than blasterborn. better armor, access to a more survivable transport. Stronger gun, melta to crack AV13 and up... AP1... yah... Ill take firedragons over blasterborn any day.

You already mentioned their jetbikes, I will add in pathfinders have their place in some armies, I just dont like them because they arent mobile (and dont do much damage)

War Walkers are cheap for the amount of shots they put out (give them surri cannons) add in outflank and you got yourself a golden unit.

Then you got Eldar's extensive FW units. Hornets, Nightwings, and Warp Hunters are the top of the list.

Basically Eldar make great allies, its just as a main army, the need a new book (which oh look... is rumored anyway)

Mushkilla wrote:

Misunderstanding on my part, I was just talking about 10 wraith guard with a warlock(they become troops when taken in squads of 10), baron and a farseer. Expensive sure, but it does give you a scoring unit with 16 T6 wounds (including baron, farseer, and warlock), with 3+ saves, 4+ cover saves in the open (conceal + stealth), re-rollable-saves thanks to fortune, fearless, hit and run, assault and defensive grenades, and guns that make units disappear. Does come to around 600pts or more depending on what you give the farseer but it's a hell of a unit, and it's only around 500points of allies (not including the baron) and meets all the requirements for an allied detachment (HQ + TROOP).

And it has great synergy with beasts, taloi, harlequins, giving DE a ridiculously resilient and deadly complimentary foot unit that can draw fire from your faster ground-pounders.

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Shadows is here to educate the masses!!!!

our hero!

True about the farseer, looks like I completely discounted his offensive support powers completely and really only saw him as a block to other psykers.

My question conerning that now: What do you think about taking Eldrad for a really feasable price jump, however he is quite immobile (requiring a transport or some such that eats up 100 pts of a quickly spiraling out of control allies list)
~or~
Do you take a vanilla farseer on a jetbike? with doom, guide, spirit stones, runes of Ward & Wit comes out to 175 pts. Can cast 1 repeat power per turn less than eldrad, misses out on spoofy redeply hijinks, slightly worse save, and worse cc weapon. BUT its mobile! What good is eldrad (appart from redeploy) if hes more than 24" from that enemy you NEED to die this turn or more than 6" away from your jet-engine bedraggled primary forces?

Whats your opinion / how do you mitigate Eldrads immobility?

The firedragons however, I can see your point but not sure I agree. yes meltaguns are more tank killy at low ranges, but getting that cose has its risks (ie, being assaulted by all the infantry that are probably supporting or at least are in the area of that tank) & are they really even more effective? inside melta range, they obviously shine - outshining the blaster vs. any AV. But thats only 6" thats 1/3 of the blasters range. Outside melta range, against AVs under 13 they are minutely better than blasters (AP 1) but blasters are more effective against vehicles with an AV of 13 or 14. so against hi AV vehicles the order of efficacy is Melta 6" fusion gun - blaster - 12" fusion blaster.

So to try and say this briefly: The extra range of the blaster allows for more shots while closing, including access to more varied shots beyond the primary target (should it be destroyed early) and they penetrate av 13 or 14 on a 4+. The venom also being open topped means that all the passengers can fire out, blasters are assault - so it has a threat bubble of 24" assuming a combat speed move for the venom.

The fire dragons (assuming melta range firing is desired to kill the target) have a threat range of 6" transport move, 6" disembark, 6" or 12" weapon range. - so when you need 2 dice to crack armor, you've only got an 18" threat range. Not that much of a difference right? But now you are committed, your fire dragons and your trasnport are now within 6" and 12" respectively of at least 1 enemy model and with only a 4+ your survival is far from guaranteed. Also, say you kill your target (with 5 meltaguns you had ought to) - now you most move your transport up, embark and then next turn you can move towards the next target (effectively requiring 2 turns per kill if no other targets are within walking range) Whereas the blasterborn are free the turn after they fire to move up to 48" across the board, or stay on station to move another 6 and fire.

Now because with a blaster you are only 50% likely to glance or pen av 12 thru 14, its pretty unlikely that one unit of blaster born will kill a high AV target first turn. Thats why you buddy up and have blasterborn supporting each other or supported by blaster warriors or raiders/ravagers - so while fire dragons are beter at wiping out a target single handedly, the trueborn have a variety of options likely arrayed in your force to help achieve that last hull point - so that weakness is easily mitigated.

Also price-wise trueborn will always be more affordable (the exception being the points you may dump into your wave serpent weaponry and how effective it is (45 pts for 1 TL brightlance seems a little crazy to me)

Class dismissed

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And it has great synergy with beasts, taloi, harlequins, giving DE a ridiculously resilient and deadly complimentary foot unit that can draw fire from your faster ground-pounders.

Im getting visions of maxed out units of beasts pouring ahead of 3 Taloi, wraithguard and a gun-mech wraithlord - maybe some warwalkers or a nightwing

Ive got goosebumps

Dont know how well it would work realistically but sounds great and an amazing modeling opportunity!

The choice to take Eldrad or a Jetseer depends on what you want from them. A: Eldrad needs a unit to sit in, and B: As you stated, he isnt as mobile as you would like. Normally you see him teamed up with a Beasts unit (since now each model can move its own movement speed, and as long as they stay in cohesion stay together) and hopefully roll invisability for stealth+shrouding + WS1 things for the beast to hit. You also see him in some fully kitted out Harliestars, as you cant live without fortune, and 1 fail= almost auto loss with that army.

But your basic DE list needs only two things, psyker protection (via RoW) and either Doom or Prescience. No other Eldar power really helps (fortune can only be cast on eldar units, guide can only be cast on eldar units and short range) So you can argue you dont need a Lv2 if you are just taking the jetseer for RoW and Prescience. So he turns out to be way cheaper than Eldrad will ever be.

As for Fire Dragons, you are right, Blasterborn are better at a longer range. But you have to factor in that Fire Dragons have a heartier transport option and themselves are more survivable. You also never take anything more than maybe TL scatter laser on a transport (actually you normally just take a surri cannon and maybe an underslung one, but even that is iffy) The difference between the two are great though. And normally DE run with an assault unit to bail out units that have to get that close anyway. Plus with the changes to rapid fire weapons, 18" is no longer safe from retaliation regardless...

Just the start and the title of the thread are pretty hilarious and contradictive.

By reading a codex just a couple of minutes and having never even tried the army, he knows whether it sucks or not. But then comes the hilarious part, he does start stating several units that aren't that bad lol.

The eldar codex is fine, needs an update, but it's not use bringing up that subjetc as it's boudn to happen soon.
Usually people get bored of playing with the same rules over again, new codex and new edition are usually the thing that force people to play their armies. There are still a lot of hardcore eldar players who will use their army, no matter what.
Dark Eldar are my main ,but i'll gladly play with my eldar, I can't say the same about my other armies.

Eldar do have a very different playing style, unlike dark eldar, they do have acess to defensive formations and units. Eldar can hold an objective, dark eldar best grab an objective later in the game as they're not made to hold objective, but rather capturing them only.
Jetbikes are popular DE allies as they have lots of speed, suiting the DE style of play.

Farseers are commonly used as allies, for all the reasons said above me.

The jetbike exarch is also somewhat popular as we don't have access to an archon on reaver jetbike anymore.

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Blasterborn are better at a longer range

6 inches is hardly long range. in truth, this will make very little difference. The transport is more expensive, but trueborn are more expensive than firedragons. You do have more fusion guns than blasters and the exarch isn't to be ignored either. Dragons are better, because of their cost, number of guns, transport and better save.

The trueborn blaster squad is very fragile and very expensive as well, I'm not a fan of this particular squad, i'd rather run trueborn with Dark Lances, a true long range squad. Nothing manjorly wrong with firedragons, I got 2 squads and no doubts on using them when I can.


Eldar are still a fine codex, still played. It's something of the past saying they need a new one, June 7 you can't say eldar need a new codex anymore.