10th ed faction focuses

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Eldar losing Battle Focus to instead keep Miracle Dice +1 doesn't seem quite right.

Now +1M over a guardsman is their only claim to having heightened mobility and reflexes.

Well, they also get BS/WS of 3+, which is apparently back to being a little bit bigger of a deal, as it was in earlier editions, since a lot of armies appear to have been downgraded back to 4+.

Fire and Fade is a LOT better (though costly), particularly if you use it on bikes or other units with a high M.

I am a little salty at only having -3AP on the lance, which will likely translate directly to us. Marines or tanks benefitting from cover are going to have a reasonable chance of shrugging them off.

It does seem that they may have made Eldar even more complicated, with having to keep track of the fate dice, and having the ability to add them with guardians and shift them with farseers, along with numerous rerolls being just built into the army.

I'm betting that Doom and/or Mindwar is something that will be reserved for Eldrad only.

krayd wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Eldar losing Battle Focus to instead keep Miracle Dice +1 doesn't seem quite right.

Now +1M over a guardsman is their only claim to having heightened mobility and reflexes.

Well, they also get BS/WS of 3+, which is apparently back to being a little bit bigger of a deal, as it was in earlier editions, since a lot of armies appear to have been downgraded back to 4+.

Except for Marines... which make up about 50% of all armies by themselves.


In any case, I don't think hitting on 3s will really have the same feel as being able to dart across the board or move after shooting.

Not saying they'll be weak, I'm just concerned - for our sake as well - that Eldar being fast and agile is being all but ditched. I guess we'll have to see what Harlequins look like.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Not saying they'll be weak, I'm just concerned - for our sake as well - that Eldar being fast and agile is being all but ditched. I guess we'll have to see what Harlequins look like.

I don't think that they're really any slower than they were before battle focus became a thing. A bit faster actually, considering that their base move stat is faster than other factions, and, if you really want to focus on speed, you can throw down a bunch of fate dice on Turn 1 advance rolls, since there is no limit to how many of them you can use at once.

Still, I hope that we are faster, since we are supposed to be.

In other news, apparently the core book leaked, and Auspex Tactics has started covering it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eWASfsetfE

According to this leak as well it looks like poison (unless it's going to be specifically a druhkari rule) no longer exist and has been translated to [anti-infantry x] and/or [lethal hits], and [lance] is no longer an anti armor thing and is more for extra damage on the charge with stuff holding spears like shining spears or a Scourge sergeant

Not sure if forum rules let me post a link to the leaks, but you can find it pretty easily on r/warhammercompetitive

Anyway, core rules look sufficient. No massive surprises outside of what' been revealed so far. The biggest thing I noticed was that attacks can't be allocated to a character unit when it's attached to body guards. I interpret that as meaning even if the guards get gibbed, any overflow doesn't hit the character so they get some extra time to withdraw.

Overwatch is still a Strategem, but seemingly Grenades have been moved to a generic strategem as well? There's also a Strategem to sorta kinda put character duels back into the game, but not in a super annoying way. For the most part though, shooting, charging, melee, etc are all fundamentally the same as with 9th.

Make of that what you will.

Archon_91 wrote:

According to this leak as well it looks like poison (unless it's going to be specifically a druhkari rule) no longer exist and has been translated to [anti-infantry x] and/or [lethal hits]

I hope not. Poison's only real saving grace is that it works just as well on bikes and monsters as it does on infantry.

I also looked at the Tactical Tortoise review of the leaks, and one thing that is really weird is how FLY works. Apparently, in order to move on top of or over terrain features, FLY units measure diagonally through the air. Hopefully, AIRCRAFT get their own separate movement rules (Aircraft rules were not included in the leak), or this could be even more ridiculous.

krayd wrote:

Archon_91 wrote:

According to this leak as well it looks like poison (unless it's going to be specifically a druhkari rule) no longer exist and has been translated to [anti-infantry x] and/or [lethal hits]

I hope not. Poison's only real saving grace is that it works just as well on bikes and monsters as it does on infantry.

Unfortunately with the death guard faction focus I think this is what happened, nothing of theirs had poison ... and they were one of the big three armies that used it (the others being us and GSC) granted we didn't see everything and there is still a possibility poison exists

Archon_91 wrote:

Unfortunately with the death guard faction focus I think this is what happened, nothing of theirs had poison ... and they were one of the big three armies that used it (the others being us and GSC) granted we didn't see everything and there is still a possibility poison exists

It's possible we might get a 'Poison' army rule that just amounts to 'anti' everything except for vehicles and titanic units. Though we might also get a nerfed version of anti- where we autowound on 4+ but it doesn't necessarily count as a critical wound, which would still require a 6. This would only matter if we have weapons that also have the 'devestating wounds' ability though.

krayd wrote:

Archon_91 wrote:

Unfortunately with the death guard faction focus I think this is what happened, nothing of theirs had poison ... and they were one of the big three armies that used it (the others being us and GSC) granted we didn't see everything and there is still a possibility poison exists

It's possible we might get a 'Poison' army rule that just amounts to 'anti' everything except for vehicles and titanic units. Though we might also get a nerfed version of anti- where we autowound on 4+ but it doesn't necessarily count as a critical wound, which would still require a 6. This would only matter if we have weapons that also have the 'devestating wounds' ability though.

I'm not sure if this works with the new faction rule philosophy - where you get one thing and everything else is USR outside some one-off bespoke abilities.

Hot take, but I think poison needs to be completely abandoned. It was okay as a gimmick back when heavy infantry had one wound and monsters had maybe three. But since then, those targets have doubled/tripled/sometimes quadrupled in wounds and poison just...hasn't changed at all to reflect that. What's left feels like something with all the disadvantages of a fixed wound roll while being basically useless against the targets it was designed to excel against.

That's not even getting into how an effective poison mechanic can really heavily skew against high toughness/monster heavy armies.

I think it's best if splinter weapons are completely reimagined into something that feels better to use.

Just to echo the above - I want to see Poison finally die.

It's long since lost every single advantage it has and is atrociously inefficient against its primary targets.

Far from being an advantage, it's a lead weight dangling around the neck of our book.

Good news is we will more than likely see it die, I'd imagine anything "splinter" is going to get [anti-infantry 4 or 5] and "Splinter racks" will add [sustained hits 1] to all splinter weapons firing from the transport

Archon_91 wrote:

Good news is we will more than likely see it die, I'd imagine anything "splinter" is going to get [anti-infantry 4 or 5]

That's not the death of poison, though.

That's just poison with a different name.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Archon_91 wrote:

Good news is we will more than likely see it die, I'd imagine anything "splinter" is going to get [anti-infantry 4 or 5]  

That's not the death of poison, though.

That's just poison with a different name.

What do you think that splinter weapons should be then? Prior to the 5th edition codex, splinter rifles were just lasguns that were better at punching through flak vests due to AP5. Poison was still a step up from that.

krayd wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Archon_91 wrote:

Good news is we will more than likely see it die, I'd imagine anything "splinter" is going to get [anti-infantry 4 or 5]  

That's not the death of poison, though.

That's just poison with a different name.

What do you think that splinter weapons should be then? Prior to the 5th edition codex, splinter rifles were just lasguns that were better at punching through flak vests due to AP5. Poison was still a step up from that.

Poison was a step up at the time.

The issue is that GW overvalues it to a ridiculous degree. Thus, our weapons get no AP, no extra damage, no extra special rules etc. - even as the units Poison was supposedly made to kill - including infantry - double or even triple in wounds.

As to what to replace it with, I'm open to ideas. Hell, I wouldn't even be opposed to Splinter Rifles going to S3 and getting extra AP, Damage and/or other rules to make them more threatening against non-vehicle units.

Personally, my ideal splinter weapons would be lower strength than their equivalents but get +1 to wound. So a Splinter Rifle would look something like:

Splinter Rifle [Assault] - R18" - A2 - BS3+ - S3 - AP0 - D1 - Add 1 to the wound rolls for this weapon against non-vehicles/non-titanic

That allows it to trade favorably against T3, about even with T4 and T5, and never under a 5+ for T6 and above. That covers the existing gaps in the current poison profile, slightly decreases its overall effectiveness against higher toughness models but means that firing basic rifles at the big fleshy things is never a super bad idea...which feels about right.

However, there's no USR for +1 to wound and some super special extra faction rule for DE isn't going to happen.

So...I would settle for S3/4 with Assault and Lethal Hits (the one that autowounds on a critical hit). The big want for me is the ability to wound T3 on a 3+ at range, which is an annoying gap currently with poison.

Tau are up today... their army rule is ... interesting ... I can see every list having 3 min size barebones pathfinder squads just for the ability to "guide" 2 units a piece so ... Pathfinder + riptide, broadside, hammerheads I think will be the core of most lists ... I love what they did with drones ... and they messed up (not really) and previewed one of our stratagems "Combat Emarkation" letting a unit embark on a transport when they are charged

Archon_91 wrote:

Tau are up today... their army rule is ... interesting ... I can see every list having 3 min size barebones pathfinder squads just for the ability to "guide" 2 units a piece so ... Pathfinder + riptide, broadside, hammerheads I think will be the core of most lists ... I love what they did with drones ... and they messed up (not really) and previewed one of our stratagems "Combat Emarkation" letting a unit embark on a transport when they are charged

Heh. Fleeing back into a transport in the face of an incoming charge is a very Tau thing to do. I'm surprised that they hadn't thought of this as a stratagem sooner.

If I'm right, we're not just missing:
- Custodes (tomorrow)
- Orks (the day after)
- Drukhari
- Harlequins (they weren't mentioned or pictured in the Aeldari one?)
- Thousand Sons
- Grey Knights (If they're still their own thing)
- Agents of the Imperium (maybe not as an army?)
- Genestealer Cults
- Specific Chapters (maybe?)

Which could in theory take us to the end of next week?

Man, this is really making me nostalgic. Just like the good old days where we weren't anywhere near the top of the list.

Vert nostalgic ... it's almost comfortable to be the forgotten faction again

I'm not really convinced that 10th ed is going to really be any faster to play; it appears that they've just taken a lot of the time that they've pared down from 9th, and filled it in with battle shock tests, especially if the game involves armies like chaos knights, which appear to be constantly forcing battle shock tests.

Granted, the system does still look tighter than 9th in most respects. However, this definitely looks like '40k: Morale Check edition'. Though, at least in previous editions, you didn't have to take checks unless you actually took casualties (or, in some editions, had only one model left in the unit). If my read on it is correct, you have to make a battleshock test during your command phase for every unit that is below half strength.

I still haven't seen anything about how aircraft work. I am hoping that they will be worth taking again.

Does anyone else think that PfP will be dropped and instead our main army ability will be Blade Artists?

krayd wrote:

I'm not really convinced that 10th ed is going to really be any faster to play; it appears that they've just taken a lot of the time that they've pared down from 9th, and filled it in with battle shock tests, especially if the game involves armies like chaos knights, which appear to be constantly forcing battle shock tests.

Granted, the system does still look tighter than 9th in most respects. However, this definitely looks like '40k: Morale Check edition'.  Though, at least in previous editions, you didn't have to take checks unless you actually took casualties (or, in some editions, had only one model left in the unit). If my read on it is correct, you have to make a battleshock test during your command phase for every unit that is below half strength.

The funny thing is, 40k still hasn't solved the core problem with its morale system - timing.

In other games and systems, leadership tests and the like are made immediately. Hell, even in past editions, if I shot a unit with a Pinning weapon it would have to make a Pinning test immediately.

This is crucial because it means I know immediately if said unit has passed or failed. If it fails, I know it's less of a threat and so can dedicate firepower elsewhere. If it passes the test, I know I have to keep hammering it.

However, even with the extra emphasis on Battleshock and on not having fearless units, GW still haven't learned this lesson. Because by the time a unit takes a morale test it is far too late for me to react to the result. Thus, I have to either leave units alive and rely on blind luck, or else I play like Morale isn't a thing and focus on wiping out units entirely.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Does anyone else think that PfP will be dropped and instead our main army ability will be Blade Artists?

I wouldn't rule out PfP, since Chaos Knights get a cumulative effect power. PfP might get simplified though, with maybe 2 or 3 abilities that kick in during certain rounds.

I wouldn't be too surprised if Blade Artists became a detachment power though. But if they broadened it to include *all* attacks (ranged and melee), then it might not be too bad, though it would still seem a little thin compared to some other detachment abilities.

PfP has been a core rule to the army in some form since the for a while (I started in 5th so I can't say about release) so I can't see them getting rid of it ... but i can see them changing it as the faction ability to be something else ... I don't know what though

Archon_91 wrote:

PfP has been a core rule to the army in some form since the for a while (I started in 5th so I can't say about release) so I can't see them getting rid of it ... but i can see them changing it as the faction ability to be something else ... I don't know what though

I'm not so sure...Space Marines have lost ATSKNF, I don't think Veterans of the Long War is a thing for CSM anymore, no Disgustingly Resilient for Death Guard, Eldar lost Battle Focus, etc.

There are no guarantees that PfP will remain, even in name. My bet, for what it's worth, is that we'll get a total rework. If they're boring, I could see them taking 2-3 of the combat drug options and applying that to the entire army (ie, give your army +1S for a turn, or +2 M, etc.) Powerful, but not exciting...so pretty typical for DE the past couple of years.

I would love something much more interactive though...which gives us POWER FROM inflicting PAIN on our opponents. Maybe the return of Pain Tokens or similar? No idea, I think the current system is a bit stale imo.

Fair point ... after seeing the chaos knights faction focus I'm kinda wondering if we are gonna be a cooy paste of that ... where most of our shenanigans are going to revolve around forcing battle shocks and getting bonuses against battle shocked units ...

Moving on, the Orks faction focus kinda felt ... empty? I don't know much about orks so I can't say but it feels like they didn't get a whole lot