Baron and Friends 2K

I've had some good luck with this list recently, though I can't help but think it could use some adjustments.

My typical strategy with this list is:

-Keep jetbikes, Hellions, and Talos in reserve
-Rush forward with everything I have except the Haemey/Wrack Raider
-Heamy rushes out, drops webway portal, rushes back to Raider
-Turn 2, Hellions deep strike to act as harassing anti-infantry unit, Reavers and Talos come on via WWP
-Turns 2-[5-7]: smash face, laugh

My problem is using the Talos as effectively as possible. I love the model, and I kinda have some decent backfield protection with him lagging behind, but I can't help but feel there's a better way to make the most out of him. What's the best way to utilize a Talos in such a fast-moving army?

My list:

+ HQ +
* Baron Sathonyx
* Haemonculus: Liquifier Gun, Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade, Webway Portal


+ Elites +
* Kabalite Trueborn
* 4x Trueborn, 4x Blaster
* Venom: Flickerfield, Nightshield, Splinter Cannon

* Kabalite Trueborn
* 3x Trueborn, 3x Blaster
* Venom: Flickerfield, Nightshield, Splinter Cannon


+ Troops +
* Hellions
* Helliarch: Agoniser and Splinter Pistol
* 11x Hellion

* Kabalite Warriors
* 9x Kabalite Warrior, 9x Splinter Rifle, 1XSplinter Cannon
* Raider: Dark Lance, Enhanced Aethersails, Flickerfield, Nightshield, Splinter Racks

* Kabalite Warriors
* 9x Kabalite Warrior, 9x Splinter Rifle, 1XSplinter Cannon
* Raider: Dark Lance, Enhanced Aethersails, Flickerfield, Nightshield, Splinter Racks

* Wracks
5x Wracks
1X Liquifier Gun
* Raider: Dark Lance, Enhanced Aethersails, Flickerfield, Nightshield


+ Fast Attack +
* Reaver Jetbikes
3x Blaster, 3x Cluster caLtrops, 9x Jetbikes
* Arena Champion Upgrade: Venom Blade


+ Heavy Support +
* Ravager: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Enhanced Aethersails, Flickerfield, Nightshield

* Ravager: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Enhanced Aethersails, Flickerfield, Nightshield

* Talos Pain Engine: Additional close combat weapon, Twin-Linked Haywire Blaster, Twin-Linked Liquifier gun

The first thing I would probably look into is your Vehicle upgrades. On Sails, Shields and Fields alone you are spending 145pts that is about 7.5% of your army total!! It is more than the cost of two Venoms, think about how much those upgrades benefit you, are they really worth more than 24 extra 36" poison shots a turn?

The Talos has two gun upgrades. Now I don't have the book on me but I'm pretty sure that isn't legal, and even if it was, would it be worth it? Just wasted points.

I have never personally used jetbikes, but your squad seems extortionatly expensive, again too many upgrades? That is a lot of points on upgrades (blasters + caltrops) that cannot be used in the same turn as one another.

Just my initital thoughts

ST

I think the Talos is legal, but does not flow with the symmetry of the army.
It is like having a team of super fast long distance runners, and adding Louie Anderson to the roster. Just doesn't fit.

You've certainly bought a lot of toys. Not that they're necessarily bad toys, but you're dropping 100 points on raiders. Those things typically explode on a 3+ or 4+. They're all valid upgrades, except maybe the aethersails, they never really appealed to me, but adding 40 points to something that has a 1 in 3 chance of blowing up when you fail a saving throw seems like unnecessarily gambling points away.

The webway portal is 35 points, and the only unit that really benefits from it is the Talos, as the jetbikes can turboboost when they come in from reserve anyway (I think) so they essentially have a 42" attack range from the table edge. Also, you just said it makes you're haemonculus and wracks hang back. They could be liquifying bros a turn earlier.

Now for the Talos. Mine's been marginally successful. He usually earns his points back at least. To me the Talos doesn't have to flow. It's not like adding Louie Anderson, it's like adding, I don't know, Chuck Lidell. He's not going to keep up with the rest of your army. But he's still a menacing threat. He's going to draw fire until he gets in combat, and if he doesn't, well he'll get in combat. You gave him a haywire blaster so his range isn't actually half bad. 15 points for the extra CCW isn't that great. This is how I talked myself out of it. Assaulting with a monstrous creature you're either normally attacking or smashing. If you choose to smash attack you'll never get more than 3 attacks... unless you roll a 6, ON the charge. So you're paying for something that only marginally helps you when assaulting infantry. The one selling point I'll give to keeping a talos or cronos and not just adding another ravager, is if you're opponent isn't prepared to deal with monstrous creatures, he'll be a huge headache for them.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

You've certainly bought a lot of toys. Not that they're necessarily bad toys, but you're dropping 100 points on raiders. Those things typically explode on a 3+ or 4+. They're all valid upgrades, except maybe the aethersails, they never really appealed to me, but adding 40 points to something that has a 1 in 3 chance of blowing up when you fail a saving throw seems like unnecessarily gambling points away.

One of the major points that initially swayed me into playing Dark Eldar was the idea of rapid insertion/deployment. After trying over and over again to make deep striking via the Duke work well, I decided to switch to using aethersails to get my vehicles where I wanted them as quickly as possible. I don't see any Tau in my local meta, so my cover saves are safe.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

The webway portal is 35 points, and the only unit that really benefits from it is the Talos, as the jetbikes can turboboost when they come in from reserve anyway (I think) so they essentially have a 42" attack range from the table edge. Also, you just said it makes you're haemonculus and wracks hang back. They could be liquifying bros a turn earlier.

I've noticed that I have a very bad habit of telegraphing what I'm going to do with my jetbikes at the start of the game, so I've taken to reserving them. The additional 18"-ish of space between the WWP and the table edge gives me a bit more reach with them in turn 2. Plus, I've noticed a distinct psychological effect when the portal goes down. What's coming out? Who knows!

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Now for the Talos. Mine's been marginally successful. He usually earns his points back at least. To me the Talos doesn't have to flow. It's not like adding Louie Anderson, it's like adding, I don't know, Chuck Lidell. He's not going to keep up with the rest of your army. But he's still a menacing threat. He's going to draw fire until he gets in combat, and if he doesn't, well he'll get in combat. You gave him a haywire blaster so his range isn't actually half bad. 15 points for the extra CCW isn't that great. This is how I talked myself out of it. Assaulting with a monstrous creature you're either normally attacking or smashing. If you choose to smash attack you'll never get more than 3 attacks... unless you roll a 6, ON the charge. So you're paying for something that only marginally helps you when assaulting infantry. The one selling point I'll give to keeping a talos or cronos and not just adding another ravager, is if you're opponent isn't prepared to deal with monstrous creatures, he'll be a huge headache for them.

And herein lies the crux of my issue with this list. I love the Talos model, and want to find some way to make it work. This is really the only way I could, and it feels like it's doing more harm than good overall in army performance. That, and I don't own a third Ravager at the moment. I've tried adding in a flyer, but they're both a bit too expensive and tend to get blown out of the sky much easier than even my Raiders.

The only real benefit I have to using the Talos like this is in Big Guns missions, where he can just hold back on an objective and take potshots at vehicles, but it seems like more of a waste of points and potential going that route.

Kung Fu Hamster wrote:

One of the major points that initially swayed me into playing Dark Eldar was the idea of rapid insertion/deployment. After trying over and over again to make deep striking via the Duke work well, I decided to switch to using aethersails to get my vehicles where I wanted them as quickly as possible. I don't see any Tau in my local meta, so my cover saves are safe.

And that's kind of what we mean by controlling the cost of the upgrades on the boats. If you feel your cover saves are fine, then you don't really need flickerfields. That's 70 points added back to your point total. That's 7 more warriors, 4 more hellions, or a whole other venom. But yes, I do see how the aethersails would be good for that strategy.

Kung Fu Hamster wrote:

I've noticed that I have a very bad habit of telegraphing what I'm going to do with my jetbikes at the start of the game, so I've taken to reserving them. The additional 18"-ish of space between the WWP and the table edge gives me a bit more reach with them in turn 2. Plus, I've noticed a distinct psychological effect when the portal goes down. What's coming out? Who knows!

I tried a WWP a few times and never had much success with it. To me it was a waste of 35 points. At this point in the game about the only thing I reserve and deep strike are my scourges. I use them as assassins to precision strike either infantry or vehicles. The rest of my stuff I want on the board though so my opponent has more targets to shoot at.

Kung Fu Hamster wrote:

And herein lies the crux of my issue with this list. I love the Talos model, and want to find some way to make it work. This is really the only way I could, and it feels like it's doing more harm than good overall in army performance. That, and I don't own a third Ravager at the moment. :)I've tried adding in a flyer, but they're both a bit too expensive and tend to get blown out of the sky much easier than even my Raiders.

The only real benefit I have to using the Talos like this is in Big Guns missions, where he can just hold back on an objective and take potshots at vehicles, but it seems like more of a waste of points and potential going that route.

It surely is a waste of points doing that. A talos should almost always be moving forward. The last game I played was against a Slaanesh CSM army with demon allies. His maulerfiend moved up and destroyed my archon's boat. Following turn the talos heat lanced him in metla range, then charged. Two smash attacks. end of his next phase two more smash attacks, dead maulerfiend, consolidated toward bikes. Lliquifier on bikes, he loses 2 marines (rolled a 6 on the ap so terrible) then assaults the bike unit. Roll another six for attacks though, so 7 st 7 ap 2 attacks. Dead bike unit. At that point the opponent started taking it seriously and sent in his invisible sorceror with a force staff to kill it. (which worked) I find the talos to be a stand alone unit. He doesn't really need support and he's better off just munching on whatever is closest to him. The only time he's never really useful is when stern guard deep strike next to him and drop a bucket of hellfire rounds on him. Which my normal opponent always does. He knows a talos unchecked is going to cause a very bad day for somebody.