Apparently... we're next.

True. I'm just working with what information I have.

Another question, how do you get 100 Wyches into combat? 2 units can be put into Deep Strike, which is 40 at the most, are the other 60 in Raiders, or foot slogging?

Also, how do you deal with morale on your 20 man blobs? With a maximum of Ld 9, I'd expect morale losses somewhere over a dozen per turn.

Morale can be an Archon in a Tantalus. It gives morale to the entire battlefield.

Yes correct Tantalus does that
Splitting into 10 makes them viable running also
Depends on terrain and if LOS blocking which can help
Just having blobs of 20 or lots of em is a considerable distraction and they can forget other vehicles etc
Drop 20 kbs with guns and 20 wyches 9 away on turn 2 massive distraction
Turn 2 to reroll the charge
Turn one can be wasted dropping them in
Lots of things to try
Taking blobs of basic kbs at 140 and dropping them is a problem when there's x2 of 20 parked there plus stuff coming at you
You cannot ignore them
I often swamp people with 20 kbs charging in
Turn 2 is usually full on as a result
We have cheap units
Use that
100 warriors for 700 points
Quite good

for example 20kb warriors with 2 blasters and 2 dls 210 points
So for 1210 u get 100 guys 20 dark Lance's 20 blasters
Go either 20s or 10s size wise
Points wise they excel
Plus whatever u need added in
You could take another 80 basic load out or other stuff
Drop in cover u have 4 up with 6 up fnp
Weapons to kill numbers usually have no save modifer
Just an example
Consider tourn format you entering and if objectives etc are important
I thought wyches were crap but killing Gulliman with em I changed my mind

If anything it at least sounds like it would be fun to slap more plastic on the board than Imperial Guard again.

It sure is
Issue is with tourns and time limits
You must be fast
But games over generally by round 3

Well you may sound a bit crazy, but you are not far off what I have been trying to do and yes, it does work. Sadly not enough models to go full bonzo. And I do have to agree that most lists showing up here are truly an echo of 7th lists.

Thank you
Yes I'm crazy
And challenging the norm hence my success
And as I've said I believe I play DE in an OP way
My experienced gaming mates I have made an agreement with that I won't play "that list"
I also will not post lists on here
I'm not a fan of net lists and sharing them
I'm all for making ya own thing and I like to give people some direction
I read about people losing alot so I'm trying to help with advice and suggestions
But I'm not writing ya list
Because of changing meta you need good sized and varied units
It's not expensive if you look around
I brought older piles of DE models for cheap and in sales and airbrushed them
They look amazing
I've capped wyches at 100
And kalabites at 200
Grab them cheap while you can

If you aren't going to post an example of one of these superlists I (and most others, I'm sure) will just assume that you're lying. You say you play in tournies, so link them.

Not lying and I'm posting utube vid series later in April
I'm winning my games
In NZ we have smaller tourns and so forth nothing big like lvo big
Natcon is 40-60? Or more
In April
I'm trying to win that
I'll post vid series with my pics of tourn and win I'm hoping for
If you want to attack me and call me a liar it's your loss
Wanting a list shows me your trolling or a net list player
Can u not think for yourself?

How does wanting an example of one of these "OP" lists make me a troll? Of course I can think for myself. We all can. The reason I want to see this is because nobody else seems to have been able to come up with anything like what you're describing, despite being able to think for ourselves.

Pain Engine wrote:

If you aren't going to post an example of one of these superlists I (and most others, I'm sure) will just assume that you're lying. You say you play in tournies, so link them.

As much as I am curious too, this is not that hard to guess. And I do have to agree that posting lists on the internet is probably the worst kind of help a player can give. And reading them is probably the worst help a player can get. The guidelines he wrote are pretty straightforward. How about assuming that it is an avenue to explore and explore it before dismissing it because you did not get it laid out for you?

Just try this excercise - take your best list. And imagine playing against say... 3 bombers, 2x20 wyches from webway and 4x10 Warriors in Raiders with Lances and Blasters each, Succy in Venom, Archon in Venom, 100 pts to spare so say rockets on the bombers or 3 bikes, whatever. Thats a pretty mild list TBH, just riding on the tune. 6xS9 lance, 8xS8lance, 5 blasters, Bombs, 100 CC attacks plus warriors plus HQs, roughly 130 poison shots, high mobility, so many troop bodies, that it will have great objective control, ability to remove like 30 horde bodies per turn of shooting and 30 more in CC, possibly more on morale and about a vehicle or two a turn. Tarpits, contesters, overwatch soak, bombs to deal with units that have -3 to hit or to make a decisive impact on any CC.

BTW if I were feeling particularly nasty, I would go 3 bombers and hello Corsairs...

IDK... I HAVE played HUGE beasts armies (30 Khymerae's, 30 RWF, a few Claw Fiends) they are my favorite units, i even have a 10 man unit of Khymerae's converted into Spiders for Hellspiders.

I play Melee kabals (they do better than wyches other than no escape) I normally take 30 at minimal (Unless its against IG, i'll do trueborns) shoot for a turn, then shoot again in rapid and melee) I too play with 2 bombers.  I also HATE venoms, i dont play them. Look at my history, i bash them all the time. I started to take no transports, tho i still love my Ravagers/Reaper, they are worth every point for me (mostly b.c i have Bombers and large forward threat with Beasts, they dont get shot at).

So my lists have been very similar to yours and... they dont work. Against Nids, Daemons, and even Orks (the 3 i lost again with Horde DE)

And i put away my Tantalus, if you think that thing is ANY good at tournaments then i honestly cant believe any words you say. It will die turn 1, every game.  I can not put it on the table in any serious game anymore. Unless you are fighting Orks and Nids, it wont last past turn 1.
PS: Yncarne is better than a Tantalus.  Auto pass moral is smaller, but you cant be killed for a couple turns 100% guarantee, also give Beast 6+++ and Archon will help Kabals.


Im not saying your wrong. But i HAVE play these types of list and against BA, IG, CWE they are not good.

I feel like the fact that we're just not seeing Dark Eldar pop up at all (outside of token units in Ynnari or Aeldari lists) in the higher brackets at the largest tournaments really speaks for itself. Yes, I'm sure that spamming Kabalites is more effective than most of us give it credit for, but that doesn't mean that we're on a par with the Codex armies. We shouldn't expect to be until we get our own Codex.

PS. let me also had, there is NO WAY you will win against current CSM/SM lists, you do NOT have enough Firepower to take down 2-3 Fire Raptors. PS they also get re-roll.

It takes 14 DL's to kill 1

For those that dont know, its a Better Storm Raven for about the same Cost.


Can you post your BCP?

First of yes hordes work pretty well, even bad hordes like wyches stand a chance against some of the meta. That is untill the enemy also brings an horde army which is better at it's job. Then suddenly you face 1.5 (orks)-2 (nids/guard) times the number of dudes you have with a similar or better damage output. And then the other units become more important. Unfortunately with your 3 voidravens you use to take out the dark reapers turn 2 (because as mentioned turn 1 they are in a serpent) the tantalus for ld and with 100 wyches ad some HQ and you are out of points but you also have more transport vehicles or reavers to soak up overwatch right? It sounds as if you have changed your list multiple times depending on who you were fighting?
But let's asume the 100 wyches and 3 voidbomber list. No way you will beat an ork horde list since you barely deal damage to the orks without melee. And with an average move of 8.5 and a charge of 15.5 orks have a larger threat radius and will be at the back of your line in turn 4 latest, in which case you spend 3 turns hiding in the back so they cannot charge you so he will have scored all the objectives and you barely any. If he get's the charge of first (with a higher move not impossible) half your army will crumble before you even fight, unless you spend half your points on transports but with 3 voidravens and 100 wyches and tantalus does not leave points for other transports? And orks don't even have a codex yet. For a guard it depends a little bit more on placement but 10 guardsman with 0.5 officer will kill roughly a 10 man wych squad a turn with shooting against a horde guard army when you do not have first turn at long range you will probably already lose about 30 wyches turn 1 and another 30 (those in the tantalus might live) turn 2 since most units will have to keep distance so you cannot charge them. You having shot a about 80 points of guards with your voidbombers and tantalus and wych pistols combined? In your turn 2 you will kill another 2 units in cc. And then it just depends on if he can keep 1 model in his front units alive to die during morale so you cannot go much further forward during pile in and consilidate and engage his other units. (which even if you do reach have a 50% change to leave combat and kill you with return fire).

Yes a lot of our units are not as horrible as some people make it sound. But the truth is most of our units are worse then the equavalent of the better variant you see in enemy options.
So a spam army (like 100 wyches most on foot) will pretty much always fail when meeting a similar spam army who does it better (like 175 orks on foot which cost the same but fight better or 108 orks in trucks also at a similar price)

aurynn wrote:

As much as I am curious too, this is not that hard to guess. And I do have to agree that posting lists on the internet is probably the worst kind of help a player can give. And reading them is probably the worst help a player can get. The guidelines he wrote are pretty straightforward. How about assuming that it is an avenue to explore and explore it before dismissing it because you did not get it laid out for you?

It is hard to guess, because the options that he is talking about have more powerful alternatives in other armies, so it is hard to see how he has such a powerful list. And I'm not asking for help, I will never build and/or use whatever list he posts since I do not play competitively and will stick to Covens. The guidelines he is posting help, yes, but as I said it sounds like he would still be outclassed by the options other armies have available.

aurynn wrote:

Just try this excercise - take your best list. And imagine playing against say... 3 bombers, 2x20 wyches from webway and 4x10 Warriors in Raiders with Lances and Blasters each, Succy in Venom, Archon in Venom, 100 pts to spare so say rockets on the bombers or 3 bikes, whatever. Thats a pretty mild list TBH, just riding on the tune. 6xS9 lance, 8xS8lance, 5 blasters, Bombs, 100 CC attacks plus warriors plus HQs, roughly 130 poison shots, high mobility, so many troop bodies, that it will have great objective control, ability to remove like 30 horde bodies per turn of shooting and 30 more in CC, possibly more on morale and about a vehicle or two a turn. Tarpits, contesters, overwatch soak, bombs to deal with units that have -3 to hit or to make a decisive impact on any CC.

While this is no doubt a good list, it would be better if it wasn't dark eldar. While this will destroy any list I can build with what I own, it's not a match for actually competitive lists. Why do you think that this is good compared to other armies?

Well because I play far weaker lists then the one I just mashed up against what is considered far stronger lists and I dont get tabled for sure. For me the game extends FAR beyond the math and rolls. Example two days ago, I was playing 2x5 incubi, 2x5 kabwarrs, 9 Reavers, 20 wyches, Archon, Succy, 2x5 Blaster Scourges, Raider, 4 Venoms @1700pts. Notice the absence of lances save one on raider... Would you say it is a strong list?

I challenged a player with Crimson Fists Leviathan, Redemptor, Land Raider, 2x5 Tacs, Pedro, Lieutenant, Devs, Reivers and Scouts. Mission was relic. Rerolls of all misses and 1s to wound and +1A in CC auras. Would you say thats a stronger list and one I was ill-equipped to beat?

I won. T1 turns he just could not shoot at me save for some lascannons, T2 I threw in Scourges so he has something else to chase than my main body and I finished the Redemptor since its really trash against blasters and lances. I didnt bother with the Leviathan. T3 I DSed wyches and bikes. Bikes charged Leviathan, weathered his rerollable D2 quite massive overwatch. Archon Charged Reivers and scouts that were bothering me on the wing, Venoms charged the Tacs, Devs and chars, followed by wyches. Succy charged Pedro and locked the LR in CC since it was next to Pedro. Incubi jumped on the Relic to provoke shooting into them. Sadly the succy died due to stupid rolling unblocking the LR. As did Archon. T4 he shot the incubi off the Relic with the LR since it was the only thing that could shoot (both units) and rushed Reivers and scouts to it. We knew we will have to end on T4 due to time, so I simply disengaged wyches onto the relic and won. He killed maybe 600 points whole game. I killed like 500. But point is it didnt matter squat. I would lock in CC everything he had on table to further turns with a raider and bikers I had there while the wyches would scamper away with the Relic. He would not be able to kill them in following two turns.

Another game I had DG deepstrike 3 beast of nurgle, slimux, 20 bloodletters, Deathshrouds and Lord. They killed 10 kabalites, succy and Venom including the DP that charged on T2. Not lucky rolls. Positioning. I killed bloodletters and the DP.

Same happened in my game against DG with 3x3 oblits. They shoot like hell, yes, but it is more about what you will ALLOW the enemy to kill.

And mind you I won all 1st turn roll-offs and let the opponents have T1.

My point is that numbers on the datasheets and the obvious stuff matters, but its not something that will define the game. If it does, you are playing it wrong.

I think an infantry heavy list is quite interesting. What is even more interesting is that there are a lot of people on this forum that trash wyches and kabs...which means there must be players out there avoiding using them. Maybe we are genuinely using them wrong??? Just something to consider thats all.

If you were building a tourny list then you might come up against that one army that does the same as yours but better...it can happen to anyone. It doesnt make your list overall bad.

DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ wrote:

Not lying and I'm posting utube vid series later in April
I'm winning my games
In NZ we have smaller tourns and so forth nothing big like lvo big
Natcon is 40-60? Or more
In April
I'm trying to win that
I'll post vid series with my pics of tourn and win I'm hoping for
If you want to attack me and call me a liar it's your loss
Wanting a list shows me your trolling or a net list player
Can u not think for yourself?

Your argument for DE being a strong army might be lacking, but you do make a very good case for the importance of grammar and sentence structure.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I think an infantry heavy list is quite interesting.  What is even more interesting is that there are a lot of people on this forum that trash wyches and kabs...which means there must be players out there avoiding using them.  Maybe we are genuinely using them wrong???  Just something to consider thats all.

If you were building a tourny list then you might come up against that one army that does the same as yours but better...it can happen to anyone.  It doesnt make your list overall bad.

I dont trash Kabals, i trash wyches b.c a Kabal does what a wych does but better. Its cheaper, can shoot doing over all more damage and is more survivable. Its also a 5+ save vs a 6+ outside of combat. Over all Kabals are better. You get 4 more bodies for every 100pts of Kabals.

About Drugs, they dont help. If you are taking +T drug, might as well go Wracks, they are better T4 and only 1pt difference. if you are taking any Melee drug, save it for Succubus as it still doesnt do as much as Kabals or Beasts can.

Beasts are also better than Wyches, Khymerae's are 1pt more and also has a 5++, better movement, Strength, Toughness, attacks. Just no PFP.


I have played 40 Kabals, 30 Khymerae's, along side 2-4 Ravagers and a Bomber or 2. Yes it is a strong...ish list. but its extremely Rock, Paper, Scissors. Currently DE literally cant win again CWE NO MATTER WHAT, Current BA/SoB style lists we have a chance IF we can bubble wrap correctly and handle the DC the turn they come down (if we can not kill that 10+ man DC unit, we will be tabled). IG, Orks, Nids with this type of list is actually bad. They do what we do but better.



Also like to add about "Stuck in 7th" this made me LOL, like literally, my wife looked over to see what was so funny.

My 7th list was CTC formation, 20+Reavers with some venoms with warriors and a DSing DA formation.   I have not had a single game played like any of my 7th games.

Sorry Amish i wasn't directing my point at you alone, more towards the forum. In the DE Index, Wyches and Kabs are not the only unit to get bashed a little on here.

I actually made a point the other day along the lines of blob units should be made of Beasts...so I didn't consider Wyches or Kabs at all.

I would say 100 Kabs vs 77 Wyches you would perhaps choose Kabs but used together in large numbers might work even better.

I also wasnt towards you either. Just showing my view.

We are just to costly for what we do. There is a reason no IG takes Chimeras in 8th, they are to costly for what they do even with how cheap guardsmen are they still are not good enough in 10mans in vehicles.

We are kinda the same way, our guys and vehicles are not equal to their points and its almost pointless to even take transports anymore. I have stopped taking them unless its to test or a fun game.  If T6 vs T5 matter (it doesnt for most games) and if a haemonculus could get the aura i vehicle or on Wings, maybe transports would be worth it.


We will get a codex soon so its not really worth detailing it out anymore IMO, at this point i'm just ready for the codex shown to us and getting annoyed.

You know I feel as though even if we get faster in the new codex the boards are too small to make this a strength.

Kinda feel as though speed as it used to me measured is very different now...so even if our transports got faster via wargear, they might still not be viable for getting your troops into combat.

Having seen some of the snippets for the Dark Elves in AOS and how they now basically have PFP, I am curious to see if they have changed the rules for DE more than we might have predicted.