Apparently....we might NOT be next

Ah yea, I guess it does now they've been dragging their feet since the initial "next 3" announcement. Damn.

Evil Space Elves wrote:

So true. Internets gonna Internet and all. Seems like the pre-butthurt attitude of "it sucks until proven otherwise" atttitude is easier for making empty calorie posts since you're only rehashing the known (last edition was not good for us) rather than take the sensible approach of "not sure about the specifics until I see it,but other codexes released recently show that GW seems to be getting it right"

Well I'm sure I could do more accurate 'predictions' if I'd been allowed to see the codex in advance, too.

Since I haven't, I'm not sure what you expect, really.

Yes, I'm going to base my predictions on past trends because that's all the data I have. GW have thus far elected to tell us bugger-all about the new codex, so the only thing I have to work with is that the 7th edition codex was a pile of festering garbage and the 8th edition index kicked us when we were down.

You'll forgive me if extrapolating the continuation of a downward trend hasn't left me optimistic.



Look, as I said right at the start, I'll freely admit that I might be wrong. Hell, I'd love to be wrong about this. However, with no leaks and no sign of new models, all I have to work with is GW's past history with DE (which peaked in 5th edition and has been going downhill ever since).

For what it's worth though, your comments have made me a little less pessimistic about the book.

The Shredder wrote:

the 8th edition index kicked us when we were down.

Unless my memory's deluding me, at the start of 8th when no Codexes had been released we were in a fine spot. Maybe even a good spot depending on who you ask.

Even now we're not exactly weak compared to the other Index-only armies.

Skulnbonz wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:

Hey look, it's the guy that thought you could outflank a Cadian Character using a Tallarn stratagem trying to through shade at me in regard to how to beat IG... Hilarious.

I don't run DE competitively currently,

No, it's the guy who DOES play DE competitively, at major tournaments. (atc / adepticon where I won best DE by the way... at both.)
So, as a competitive DE player, let me inform you that yes, scourges DO suck, as do reavers, talos, almost all coven units, wyches and hellions.  What does not suck? Warriors and our boats. That is pretty much it, and our boats are overcosted, and not by a little.

@Skulnbonz what's your reasoning behind this? I've got pretty limited tournament experience but I don't see Scourges as being overall more or less effective than Ravagers. Do you just think that they're too fragile once they're on the board, or what?

Burnage wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

the 8th edition index kicked us when we were down.

Unless my memory's deluding me, at the start of 8th when no Codexes had been released we were in a fine spot. Maybe even a good spot depending on who you ask.

Even now we're not exactly weak compared to the other Index-only armies.

Even without RWF's we were one of the strongest until IG came out, completely put us towards the bottem. But IMO thats ok b.c Codex vs Index.

Burnage wrote:

Skulnbonz wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:

Hey look, it's the guy that thought you could outflank a Cadian Character using a Tallarn stratagem trying to through shade at me in regard to how to beat IG... Hilarious.

I don't run DE competitively currently,

No, it's the guy who DOES play DE competitively, at major tournaments. (atc / adepticon where I won best DE by the way... at both.)
So, as a competitive DE player, let me inform you that yes, scourges DO suck, as do reavers, talos, almost all coven units, wyches and hellions.  What does not suck? Warriors and our boats. That is pretty much it, and our boats are overcosted, and not by a little.

@Skulnbonz what's your reasoning behind this? I've got pretty limited tournament experience but I don't see Scourges as being overall more or less effective than Ravagers. Do you just think that they're too fragile once they're on the board, or what?

I've been saying I dont like them from the start also, i always just run Ravagers and Raiders, i'm not a heavy comp player but my local is highly comp as in they want to win and will play very strong lists. They will not play heavy Spam lists, for an Example our CWE player will use a Dark Reaper unit and a Shiny Spear unit, will still give them Psychic support and play some Ynnari, but he wont take more than 1 unit of each, and they are around 6-8man size, he does play with 2 WS and some Hawks with Wraiths. Its still very comp and he is an extremely good player. The BA player plays with DC/S,Guard, Smash Captains, etc..  As a DE player that has fought lists with 3 Storm Ravens (instead of 5) and 4 Razorbacks (instead of 6), IG with lots of tanks and Gman.

I dont play with my Scourges at all, its 3 Raiders, 4-5 Ravagers, 2 Flyers, some Beasts and a couple venoms, with lots of Kabals/Trueborns and 2x5man Mandrakes.

I like Ravagers b.c they can move+advance and still fire, they on average get same amounts of hits, but are MUCH more survivable.
The only reason to take Scourges is turn 1 stay alive, but why does it matter if they are dead turn 2 always? At least my Ravagers can live for a few turns. Especially if they list turn 1, i can put my 2 venoms, 2 Mandrakes, Bombers, and beasts (or w/e is left honestly) into their front lines as a forward threat, if i can do that, the Ravagers will outlast the rest of my army.
I've had games where only 2-3 Ravagers with 2-5 wounds left on the end of turn 5 before.


I have Custodes bike army now (only 1500pts of them) and i must say, i hated Venoms before and now i HATE them even more, a Custode Bike (Vertus Praetor) is Rapid 6 bolter..... Venoms better get Rapid 6 back.

Burnage wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

the 8th edition index kicked us when we were down.

Unless my memory's deluding me, at the start of 8th when no Codexes had been released we were in a fine spot. Maybe even a good spot depending on who you ask.

Even now we're not exactly weak compared to the other Index-only armies.

I suspect that Shredder is not talking about power level, but about how all our options were pushed into the gutter and shot in the head, a treatment that was far from universal.

No Vehicle upgrades. No wargear. No flavor. And that's not something universal in the indexes.

That is very true... we were gutted after being gutted.

Burnage wrote:

Unless my memory's deluding me, at the start of 8th when no Codexes had been released we were in a fine spot. Maybe even a good spot depending on who you ask.

Even now we're not exactly weak compared to the other Index-only armies.

Well, off the top of my head:
- Our HQs lost what little gear they had left
- Many already-bad weapons were made even worse (the Huskblade, the Glaive, the Shredder, the Liquifier gun, the Hexrifle, virtually every melee in the Haemonculus' arsenal, bar the Electrocorrosive Whip)
- The Splinter Cannon (and by extension, the Venom) was nerfed ton hell.
- Poison weapons in general make no allowance for the huge increase in wounds on all Monsters.
- Our auras are pathetic
- Our already-small army was split into 5 different subfactions (including Incubi and Mandrakes), with basically no overlap between them. So our already bad auras affect less than a third of our army.
- Our HQs still have no mobility options, nor is there any allowance for auras to work inside open-topped transports.
- The maximum size of many squads has been increased, but transport capacity has remained unchanged (so it's now impossible for an Archon to ride with Incubi or Trueborn in a Venom).
- In addition, open-top vehicles now only function for shooting, whilst our army is mainly geared for assault.
- Both of our Monsters have been completely de-fanged, Reavers (one of the few decent units in the previous codex) have been nerfed to hell.
- The PfP table is still a mess.
- So little synergy, or even anti-synergy. The Court of the Archon gets a bonus to shooting when near an Archon... which is completely negated by embarking on a transport with said Archon. Drazhar is barely better than a Klaivex to begin with, he's the only one who can buff Incubi and that buff is redundant from turn 3 onwards. And this trend has continued even into Chapter Approved, with the Succubus having negative synergy with her own warlord trait.
- We still seem to be paying for privilege. Devastators don't cost more than normal marines, yet Trueborn cost over 50% more than Warriors for the privilege of being able to take more special/heavy weapons.

Yes, there were improvements. For the first time in ages, Mandrakes actually work well, Disintegrators and Dark Lances are finally good (shame about Blasters), Agonisers aren't great but they're at least cheap etc.

Even in terms of power though, I'd say our success ad more to do with other races getting worse than with us getting better (no more indestructible Wraithknights, no more Scatterbikes, no more untouchable Fliers etc.). Especially since we didn't get universally more competitive - just a few units/weapons that benefited greatly from the update (like the aforementioned Dark Lance). The main issue is that other units seem to have been left wanting (most Coven units are now bad and and I'm not sure there's a single good Wych unit in the entire codex).

So, whilst we can compete, it does seem to involve ignoring about 2/3 of our codex. At least in 7th Coven had some nice stuff.

More than that though, there's just so little flavour left. Archons have gone from having a page of gear in 5th to not being able to take a single piece of wargear that isn't a weapon. Haemonculi have one piece of non-weapon wargear. And it's free, which just leaves me to wonder why they bothered giving us the option of not taking it. There's just so little left that's even remotely fun or flavourful.

And given that I started the army in 5th precisely because it was fun and flavourful, it's really hard for me to see the index in a positive light, regardless of its power level.

FuelDrop wrote:

I suspect that Shredder is not talking about power level, but about how all our options were pushed into the gutter and shot in the head, a treatment that was far from universal.

No Vehicle upgrades. No wargear. No flavor. And that's not something universal in the indexes.

Basically this.

Burnage wrote:

@Skulnbonz what's your reasoning behind this? I've got pretty limited tournament experience but I don't see Scourges as being overall more or less effective than Ravagers. Do you just think that they're too fragile once they're on the board, or what?

the issue with scourges are two fold.
1. Survivability. If scourges were a vehicle, the stats would read "toughness 3, 4+ save, 6++ save, 5 wounds, 4 dark lances (heavy weapons), multi wound weapons always only do 1 wound"- 150 points

A ravager is 155 points, 3 dark lances (assault), toughness 6, 10 wounds, 4+, 5++ vs shooting.

What can kill the scourges easily? Everything in the game. Every single thing. Bolters, lasguns, guardsmen in hand to hand, everything.
the same cannot be said for the Ravager. Small arms fire and weak HTH attacks are pretty useless. After the first wound on scourges, you lose dark lances. After the first 4 wounds (which would wipe the scourges to one model) you are still 100% effective.
So for 5 points more, you get a tougher platform with a better save (vs shooting at least) that does not have dark lances dropping after the first shot.
this brings us to part 2-
2- Movement. Scourges HAVE to be hidden, or start in reserve. If not, they will simply be wiped from the table. therefore, they have to move, dropping them to hitting on a 4+. Alatoic or flyer? 5+. Both? 6+. The only decent weapon for them is the Dark lance. the others are not even close to points efficient. So to put dark lances on a unit that has to move is just plain horrible design.

So, it is not that they "suck" per say, it is that they are designed bad, and "suck" compared to other units in the same dex that do the same thing, only better and more resiliant.
Competitively speaking, leave the scourges at home and just bring another ravager.

TBH, carbines are very decent for scourges. But yeah, appart from that, everything else sucks for them.

Quote :

Alatoic or flyer?

Actually, they are a good answer to the usual Alaitoc camping Fire prism strategy. Deep striking cancels the Alaitoc bonus.


The difference between scourges and ravagers have been discussed through and through. More shots, but less precision on the move. Less survivability, but immune to alpha striking. Honestly... they both have their uses.

But I stand with you with the fact that scourges should have more options than carbines or DL. Heat lances should be a thing. Splinter cannons should be a thing. HWB... Blasters... too many useless weapons around.

@Skulnbonz I agree with you about Scourges. It's a shame because (IMO) they're some of the nicest models in our range.

Out of interest, how would you suggest fixing them? Make them cheaper? Let them move and fire without penalty?

Or is the problem with weapons like Blasters being lacklustre, compared to Dark Lances?

This might be one of those "agree to disagree" situations - your issues with them are compensated for in my mind by their ability to deep strike and additional Dark Lance. They're certainly not a unit that I'm hoping (or expecting) to see getting buffed in the codex, outside of a wider variety of useful weapons.

Burnage wrote:

This might be one of those "agree to disagree" situations - your issues with them are compensated for in my mind by their ability to deep strike and additional Dark Lance. They're certainly not a unit that I'm hoping (or expecting) to see getting buffed in the codex, outside of a wider variety of useful weapons.

Getting better weapon options is a buff to them tho, if they could take a Balster (they can now but literally isnt worth it) aka the blaster is fixed, then they will have a different viable option for them. Or a Heatlance.

FYI, the Custodes Bikes have a Heavy 1, S8, -4ap, D6, Roll 2 take highest for damage, 24" range, for 25pts, doesnt need to be 1/2 range to get the 2d6. On 2+ to hit guys.

The Shredder wrote:

@Skulnbonz I agree with you about Scourges. It's a shame because (IMO) they're some of the nicest models in our range.

Out of interest, how would you suggest fixing them? Make them cheaper? Let them move and fire without penalty?

What would make them a great unit and viable? competitive and not over the top?
Simple.

Same as ravagers, any weapon they hold is an assault weapon, and let them make a 2d6 move in the charge phase.

Like the old bikes or Tau... Jump Shoot Jump.
Fixed.

That way you can deep strike them in, or start them on the board, shoot and then jump out of LOS or at least into cover... Using ITC rules, they can jump up and down 1 level of ruins with impunity (as long as you roll a 3) and cant be seen on the lower level. BUT they are still vulnerable to other deep striking units or flyers. I think that is a perfect balance.

Just my .02

JSJ should be a Stratagem for infantry like CWE.

amishprn86 wrote:

That is very true... we were gutted after being gutted.

Gutception?

Burnage wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

the 8th edition index kicked us when we were down.

Unless my memory's deluding me, at the start of 8th when no Codexes had been released we were in a fine spot. Maybe even a good spot depending on who you ask.

Even now we're not exactly weak compared to the other Index-only armies.

I agree with this. No issue at all holding our own index v. index.

Archon Teneshar wrote:

I would be ecstatic if we were next, but ...

You had one job. One simple job.

Evil Space Elves wrote:

I win a motorcycle if this is immediately followed by a "Yeah?

He just wanted a bike. Nothing special, just a simple man with a simple wish. He didn’t even wish for a good codex. Why? Because he’s seen it. Hence his reasoning for a simple request, as he knows whats comming already fulfills his wish for a pretty good codex.

What did we get instead. A downward spiral about people complaining about our lack of being top tier, and comparing a great choice against a not as good choice, just because it can have the same weapon/battlefield role.

I haven’t posted a list in years, haven’t commented on lists in years, even though I’ve played mandraks when they were placed in 3 different spots simultaniously. That stuff was fun. Not amazing but one made it work. But posting lists nowadays usually ends in mindlessly optimizing lists. Where is the fun people. Commorragh was build on... “fun”.

Dark Eldar never played by the rules. Don’t do what other people do, pic a unit you like and find a way to make it work. Like CC warriors and board edge closing fiends.

That being said, I am looking forward to more options on the characters like the Archon. ESE, I am counting on you here.

Oh and just for you, a lonely

Yeah.

Quote :

Out of interest, how would you suggest fixing them? Make them cheaper? Let them move and fire without penalty?

Their price is okay... but the price of their weapons isn't. HL and SC need to be cheaper. The blaster needs either to be cheaper, or have its own identity (something like rapid fire, D2). The HWB needs to have special rules giving it a purpose. Shredders need... to become a weapon.

This would go a long way in making our codex good, because it would buff Scourges, Reavers, Venoms, Kabalites, Trueborns, Taloi... it would make 50% of our units a lot more colourful and interesting.


For Scourges, I would LOVE to see the HL go up in range... even if it only gains 1" range... being able to deepstrike into melta range would be very special.

I spoke to a Warhammer employee the other day at my local store, and he said that T'au were probably next -_-

I guess we'll to wait just that little bit longer :/

If Splintermind’s Facebook post from yesterday night was containing a hint (as I believe), then we will be out in 6 weeks:
- 2 for DoK
- 1 for Tau
- 1 for Necron
- 1 for Necron Board game
- 1 for something else

Kinda makes sense...

Link to FB?

My feelings exactly. After all this hype in February waiting week after week to see if we would come out, not going to be waiting as eagerly in every week in March. Waiting till April for a release wouldn't surprise me at all.

I don't care anymore for the new codex. If they released it, I would have bought many models, out of the excitement. Now... well... I'll probably download the codex illegally and maybe buy 1-2 models.