Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising

Okay, I have spent some more time looking at Drazhar and these are the things that put me off. The Helmet, the Demiklaives, the model is too busy, and the pose.

I'll start with the helmet. I love the look of his old face plate and I would have loved for them to have retained it in the design to keep a unique feel to the character. I also do not like the hair.

Personally I have not been a fan of the Klaives and Demiklaives, I was more of a fan of the old Punisher. As he is a unique character I would have imagined he would have retained (though I don't mind a bit of a redesign on the old blades as they were a bit odd in shape) or gained some kind of unique look to his demiklaives but instead he just seems to use the same weapon as every other Klaivex and once again loses some uniqueness. This just feels lazy to me.

Overall the model feels to busy. I'm not a fan of the Spirit Stone necklace, like mentioned before I never really felt he was one that felt he needed to over dress to show off, if his authority was challenge he came off as one who would just prove himself through combat instead of sticking out his chest and attempt to intimidate with the number of bobbles he could fit around his neck. Oh and all the ribbons, I'm not a fan of all the ribbons. Someone at GW must have a fetish for them.

And now I will get to the pose as my final criticism. Why does he have his arms so far apart? He is supposed to be a master duelist and fighter yet he completely exposes his chest drawing both arms as far apart as he can. This is a problem if he is doing more than just posing for a recruitment poster. If he is supposed to be in combat, the direction his head is facing indicates he would be facing a threat coming in from his extended right hand, if he needs to block or strike with the left he will have reduced response time as he has to bring it all the way in from the extreme he currently has it. This also leaves his chest as exposed as you can, thus not conveying a feeling of a master martial artist. I'm also not a fan of the way he is utilizing/holding the Demiklaives as oversized knuckle dusters, that was the last way I imagined them being used personally.

Anyway those are my thoughts on it and personal opinions, feel free to insult, counter, and deride it to your hearts content.

I believe I agree with you here. When I get the model, I'm definitely going to be cutting off that hair, the ribbons and the spirit-stones. A plain model would have far more suited the kind of person that Drazhar was supposed to be.

Mmm while I can agree in some of them, I must say that the Old Drazhar : Old Incubi = New Drazhar : New Incubi.
Basically, the old Draz Helm and Armour was a deviation from the old Incubi's Helm and Armour, precisely as the new one for the new Incubi.
About.the trophies, even if he is no the typo, I like that those are just and only trophies from Exarchs. Is not that he's showing Tau's heads or Ork's heads etc (thanks god!); I think it is a way to show the bg directly into the model.

Maybe they'll get some rules based on those smashed soulstones. Like they're keeping them because they use them in some way.

dumpeal wrote:

Maybe they'll get some rules based on those smashed soulstones. Like they're keeping them because they use them in some way.

That would be a revival and maybe an expansion of the concept from 5th edition, so it is possible.

"Bloodstone: Forged from the broken soulstone of an Eldar Exarch, a Bloodstone is a rare and exotic weapon that can boil the enemy's blood with a single pulse of energy." Dark Eldar 5th edition, page 31

TheBaconPope wrote:

I like how they're hyping up D2 as the end all be all of a powerhouse weapon.

The D2 is an improvement, as is the additional D2 on the 6 to wound. I still don't understand why Lethal Precision can't generate Mortal Wounds. The current rules still leaves room for an armor save before the additional damage even applies. This proposed set up makes me think he is meant to be the one using Onslaught, which needs to be changed to a 6+ to hit, not an unmodified 6. Stacking Drazhar's Master of Blades and PfP for no meaningful effect on the Klaivex is dumb.

False Son wrote:

TheBaconPope wrote:

I like how they're hyping up D2 as the end all be all of a powerhouse weapon.

The D2 is an improvement, as is the additional D2 on the 6 to wound.  I still don't understand why Lethal Precision can't generate Mortal Wounds.  The current rules still leaves room for an armor save before the additional damage even applies.  This proposed set up makes me think he is meant to be the one using Onslaught, which needs to be changed to a 6+ to hit, not an unmodified 6.  Stacking Drazhar's Master of Blades and PfP for no meaningful effect on the Klaivex is dumb.

Who knows? Maybe the will. Surely by now someone on the GW design team has realised the pointlessness of those two abilities. Really just looking forward to the release of the full rules.

Sarcron wrote:

False Son wrote:

TheBaconPope wrote:

I like how they're hyping up D2 as the end all be all of a powerhouse weapon.

The D2 is an improvement, as is the additional D2 on the 6 to wound.  I still don't understand why Lethal Precision can't generate Mortal Wounds.  The current rules still leaves room for an armor save before the additional damage even applies.  This proposed set up makes me think he is meant to be the one using Onslaught, which needs to be changed to a 6+ to hit, not an unmodified 6.  Stacking Drazhar's Master of Blades and PfP for no meaningful effect on the Klaivex is dumb.

Who knows? Maybe the will. Surely by now someone on the GW design team has realised the pointlessness of those two abilities.

Bear in mind that these are the same people who still think that units not taking up detachment slots is a advantage.

They are changing all the rules into "unmodified" stuff. It is for balance

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Sarcron wrote:

False Son wrote:

TheBaconPope wrote:

I like how they're hyping up D2 as the end all be all of a powerhouse weapon.

The D2 is an improvement, as is the additional D2 on the 6 to wound.  I still don't understand why Lethal Precision can't generate Mortal Wounds.  The current rules still leaves room for an armor save before the additional damage even applies.  This proposed set up makes me think he is meant to be the one using Onslaught, which needs to be changed to a 6+ to hit, not an unmodified 6.  Stacking Drazhar's Master of Blades and PfP for no meaningful effect on the Klaivex is dumb.

Who knows? Maybe the will. Surely by now someone on the GW design team has realised the pointlessness of those two abilities.

Bear in mind that these are the same people who still think that units not taking up detachment slots is a advantage.

bear in mind these are the same people that advertised our raiders as blisteringly fast while wave serpents go 2" further and have more armor, better save, reduce damage, have more wounds, variable guns AND can carry more models.

I'm probably gonna transplant the old Drazhar head onto the new Drazhar body (maybe transplant a few of the horns from the new one onto the old and remove the spiritstone necklace for use on an archon/Succubus. Will probably remove a lot of the ribbon too.

Cerve wrote:

They are changing all the rules into "unmodified" stuff. It is for balance

I Don't buy it.  My Power Fist Terminators get extra attacks on 6s, despite the -1 to hit.  My Incubi get extra attacks on 6s despite getting +2 to hit from Drazhar and PfP.

AzraeI wrote:

bear in mind these are the same people that advertised our raiders as blisteringly fast while wave serpents go 2" further and have more armor, better save, reduce damage, have more wounds, variable guns AND can carry more models.

To be fair, they pay a ton for those improvements.  Even then, there are things the Raider does better while being cheaper.  An Invulnerable save, viable melee attacks and I dare say better vehicle equipment.  The one thing that makes me truly jealous of Wave Serpents is the T7 not granting 5+s to wound to S3 attacks.

False Son wrote:

Cerve wrote:

They are changing all the rules into "unmodified" stuff. It is for balance

I Don't buy it.  My Power Fist Terminators get extra attacks on 6s, despite the -1 to hit.  My Incubi get extra attacks on 6s despite getting +2 to hit from Drazhar and PfP.

It's easier to balance rules with fewer combinations.
Warhammer is a very comprehensive game, and thus difficult to balance. While I would enjoy more combo possibilities, I don't mind giving that up for better balance.

False Son wrote:

To be fair, they pay a ton for those improvements.  

Sorry but the cost is irrelevant. Unless you're going to argue that Land Raiders should also be outpacing Raiders?


The whole point of DE vehicles is that they trade armour for speed, yet Eldar vehicles get to be better armoured and faster.

I wouldn't exactly be unhappy if Raiders got a movement speed buff but absolutely none of our vehicles need improvements. It sucks if they don't match your view of the fluff but they're all in solid places in terms of tabletop performance.

For Phoenix Rising, I'd like to see bonus rules for Incubi and all the Wych Cult units (especially beasts and Hellions, they need the help), but I think we're realistically just likely to see stuff for Incubi now. I'm really not expecting that much from this release any more - they've dragged out the hype for too long and only given us teases of minor changes to Banshees and Incubi.

The thread's derailing a bit, but I'll shove it over more.
I play DE and Craftworld just about equally. I tell everyone that cares to listen that Wave Serpents are the best transports in the game, especially for their cost. And might be some of the best tanks. How I typically load mine: Twin bright lance, shuriken cat, crystal targeting = 175 points.
Raiders are different, but if loaded with Kabalites as a gun platform (which is my go-to move) they are loaded: Disintegrator, shock prow, 8 Kabs with splinter rifles, 1 shredder, 1 splinter canon = 160 points.

As damage dealers, (how I run both) (after dumping the cargo out of the Wave Serp - usually Wraith Guard), I think the Raiders might actually be more important to me. Once I consider the Kabs part of the weapon, never thinking of using the Raider as a delivery of troops mechanism. Then the troop tax for DE is also kinda also irrelevant as my boat is doing a lot of work on the table.
Of course, it's a different story if I'm running a Coven list.

nerdelemental wrote:

The thread's derailing a bit, but I'll shove it over more.
I play DE and Craftworld just about equally. I tell everyone that cares to listen that Wave Serpents are the best transports in the game, especially for their cost. And might be some of the best tanks. How I typically load mine: Twin bright lance, shuriken cat, crystal targeting = 175 points.
Raiders are different, but if loaded with Kabalites as a gun platform (which is my go-to move) they are loaded: Disintegrator, shock prow, 8 Kabs with splinter rifles, 1 shredder, 1 splinter canon = 160 points.

As damage dealers, (how I run both) (after dumping the cargo out of the Wave Serp - usually Wraith Guard), I think the Raiders might actually be more important to me. Once I consider the Kabs part of the weapon, never thinking of using the Raider as a delivery of troops mechanism. Then the troop tax for DE is also kinda also irrelevant as my boat is doing a lot of work on the table.
Of course, it's a different story if I'm running a Coven list.

but you're not factoring in that the serpent lives significantly longer then a raider
and dont get me started on the fliers

AzraeI wrote:

nerdelemental wrote:

The thread's derailing a bit, but I'll shove it over more.
I play DE and Craftworld just about equally. I tell everyone that cares to listen that Wave Serpents are the best transports in the game, especially for their cost. And might be some of the best tanks. How I typically load mine: Twin bright lance, shuriken cat, crystal targeting = 175 points.
Raiders are different, but if loaded with Kabalites as a gun platform (which is my go-to move) they are loaded: Disintegrator, shock prow, 8 Kabs with splinter rifles, 1 shredder, 1 splinter canon = 160 points.

As damage dealers, (how I run both) (after dumping the cargo out of the Wave Serp - usually Wraith Guard), I think the Raiders might actually be more important to me. Once I consider the Kabs part of the weapon, never thinking of using the Raider as a delivery of troops mechanism. Then the troop tax for DE is also kinda also irrelevant as my boat is doing a lot of work on the table.
Of course, it's a different story if I'm running a Coven list.

but you're not factoring in that the serpent lives significantly longer then a raider
and dont get me started on the fliers

Yeah this. Raiders being. Not only are they +2 toughness and +3 wounds, 3+ armor -1 damage (vs 5++) but their movement is +2" also, and finally Transports 12, something it is over looked a lot but is very important.

Doesn't a wave serpent cost about twice and much as a Raider?

colinsherlow wrote:

Doesn't a wave serpent cost about twice and much as a Raider?

Yeah. Before weapons the Raider is 65 points and the Wave Serpent is 120. Of course it's going to be better.

Let's jump into the derail thread train.
A Flayed skull raider with enhanced aethersails moves 25" for 1CP, add fire and fade and it moves 32" for 2CP.
That's fully covered by my definition of fast.

I'm totally factoring how much longer it lives and its extra durability.
I play both. Equally. Everyone in this thread is focused on "OMG, they're so much better than Raiders!" maybe because we've spent 10+ years enjoying being the absolute worst and most forgotten faction ever and we could own the complaining. And, as Burnage had to (for God knows why) remind everyone, it's almost twice as many points before even putting normal weapons on it.

Yes, the WS is way more durable. I even mentioned that I tell just about everyone that the WS is the best transport and one of the best tanks in the game.

However, what (some) seem to be overlooking is the strength of the Disintegrators (esp for the cost), ~16 splinters, 6 splinter cannon shots, 1 shredder or blaster shot all for the same cost as an empty WS. Once the WS dumps out its passengers it's durable, and can park in a good location to bottle up the movement of enemies. But it's not got the same offensive utility as a Raider loaded with Kabs. And I keep 15 points for the loaded raider. And even after the raider is wrecked, all those splinters and a blaster still function.

I often take 3-5 Raiders loaded up. I rarely ever take more than 3 Waves.

Another way to equate these kinda evenly (though my real point is that it's not fair to either side):
1 WS+twin bright lances+shuriken canon+targeting matrix (fairly common load)= 175 points.
2 awesome heavy shots+3 good shuriken per turn. T7, w13, 3+ save, goofy damage mitigation.

2 Raiders+Disintegrators+decent melee intrinsic=160pts
6 Dissie shots per turn (passengers can shoot bonus). Melee possible, though not optimal. T5, W20 (two of them for CHEAPER than the WS), 4+5++ save.

Logan Frost wrote:

Let's jump into the derail thread train.
A Flayed skull raider with enhanced aethersails moves 25" for 1CP, add fire and fade and it moves 32" for 2CP.
That's fully covered by my definition of fast.

So if you take one specific Kabal, then use a Stratagem that means you have to Advance, then use yet another Stratagem afterwards, you can make a single Raider fast?

Hooray?

Does the fluff explicitly says you cannot use stratagems?
Because we were talking about how the fluff translate to the crunch, right?
OK let's not use flayed skull, now it's 22" and 29". Still faster than most (every?) vehicles I'm the game.

the thing is, to get the full potential of the raider you have to be within 12".
and the raider is small, so enemies can easily encircle it. And IF the passengers survive, you have all your precious weapons on basicaly guardsmen.
also what exactly does the speed help us? sure moving 32" is nice, but then none of your kabalites (except blaster and shredder) can fire