Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising

amishprn86 wrote:

Ok, first i HATE these for DE.

The Kabal ones just make Venoms and Flyers strong  (they already are strong now), Venoms with +3" movement and +1D, Flyers as wych with +1 wound, and no one is taking the coven b.c coven is unplayable with PoF.

Kabal already has +3" movement, that SHOULD have been for the Wyches (it would make Hellions and Reavers more playable), the +1 invul SHOULD be able to take with another trait b.c its a terrible trait alone (or it should just have been +1 to all invuls always if it was stand alone).

If only there had been some way to allow Wyches to benefit from these as well.

Like, just for the sake of example, not splitting our army into 3 subfactions with so few models and options each that even Sisters of Battle are laughing at us.

Skulnbonz wrote:

Test of skill- (aka +1 to wound against monsters or vehicles). Are you willing, in a tournament, to risk taking this power which if you face no monsters or tanks (or hey, look, a demon prince and 300 plaguebearers) will be totally useless? I am not.  Situationally great. Against knights, and throw in the -1 ap on a 6 to wound and now we are talking. But if you don't know your opponent beforehand, it is a pure waste.


Dark Harvest.
DANG! This one is good, but IF and only IF there is another power that grants +1 to the invul save, and based on the wych power taking both choices to do that, I would not hold your breath. The fact that this is not a 1 time power, that every time you engage, you are causing mortal wounds makes it tempting, but not tempting enough to dethrone Prophets of Flesh.


Experimental Creations. +1 str AND if your STR is higher than your opponents Toughness using a poison weapon (wracks, haemis and I think that is it...) you wound on a 3+.  Please forget this nonsense about venoms using this, it is designed and written with HTH in mind. Heck, even the descriptive writing at the beginning says "these monstrous test subjects are fed strength enhancing concoctions".  If this is an oversight, it will be fixed instantly or my 12 venom list will be hitting the table.
Still not better than Prophets.


So.. in my ever so humble opinion, these rules will be for "fun" and "fluff" but won't see much tournament time unless the rules we are not seeing are better than what they put out already.

Overall I agree with you here with a few slight disagreements.

Test of skill is amazing on an air-wing and probably the best trait available on fliers now. So I disagree with you there. Even on venoms it means your pushing saves on tanks on a 5+.

You are over stating dark harvest by a mile. It works like caltrops. You need to end your charge within an inch and it only triggers after you have charged on a per model basis. This is worse then eviscerating flyby in almost every scenario and we already know how great that is. Best case scenario is using wracks from a raider, your never getting 10 grots within an inch after the charge step lol.

Experimental creations is clearly a mistake I assume as well, so we agree there however you misread it. It compares the coven units toughness to the enemies toughness. Nowhere in there does it state your strength matters. But given they get +1 strength as well, I am guessing this was an error (big surprise given it's GW).

I actually think the 2 damage on a 6 isn't that terrible, remember your gaining another ability we don't know yet but it definitely doesn't stack up to flayed skull or black heart lol. The trait options had better be at least 10 per cult, kabal or coven given the craftworlders get to mix and match 22. You have to remember we are stuck in each tree. I also wonder if we are getting any strats, surely we are but they are probably more then likely going to the incubi.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Ok, first i HATE these for DE.

The Kabal ones just make Venoms and Flyers strong  (they already are strong now), Venoms with +3" movement and +1D, Flyers as wych with +1 wound, and no one is taking the coven b.c coven is unplayable with PoF.

Kabal already has +3" movement, that SHOULD have been for the Wyches (it would make Hellions and Reavers more playable), the +1 invul SHOULD be able to take with another trait b.c its a terrible trait alone (or it should just have been +1 to all invuls always if it was stand alone).

If only there had been some way to allow Wyches to benefit from these as well.

Like, just for the sake of example, not splitting our army into 3 subfactions with so few models and options each that even Sisters of Battle are laughing at us.

I can just about guarantee you that had the entire army shared single obsessions they would have all been generic trash. The ones we got with a couple exceptions are very focused on which branch of the faction they come from. There is no way your getting the profits of flesh invuln boost that way, but there is a good chance you get that garbage dark creed trait lol.

I would have done something like this

Kabal
Rapid fire weapons are also treated as being in rapid fire range if on or embarked in a vehicle
Move and fire heavy weapons without penalty

Wyches
+3" movement
-1 to hit if moved in the previous turn (movement, advance, charge)

Coven
+1 to Inured to Suffering
Vehicles gain <Coven> and units may disembark 6" instead of 3"

Generic
Mercenaries gain Obsessions. You may only give them this obsession and 1 other generic obsession
This obsession allow you to mix Kabal, coven, and wych units into the same detachment. You may only pick 1 other generic obsession to go with this one.
All units may fallback and shoot
+1 to movement and charges


These would have been game changing, not for the OPness but b.c it make different builds

amishprn86 wrote:

I would have done something like this

Kabal
Move and fire heavy weapons without penalty

whats the point of this? only kabalites with a dark lance would benefit from it
The rest is a very good list i agree with you it would be much better

Let's not freak out over the custom obsessions being trash just yet. We've only seen a small taste of them, and it's likely that we are going to get 20+ different options spread out across our subfactions.

Some of the ones unveiled so far seem interesting, but nothing incredibly good or better than some of the existing obsessions. We'll see though, I'm reserving judgement until I have the new book.

Red Corsair wrote:

Test of skill is amazing on an air-wing and probably the best trait available on fliers now. So I disagree with you there. Even on venoms it means your pushing saves on tanks on a 5+.

I see your point, but I think you missed mine where I was saying I would rather have +3" movement, Reroll the splinter cannon and deny cover saves against any and all models in my opponents army rather than hoping my opponent brought vehicles or monsters.

My last tournament I faced:
Game 1: Space Wolves. Zero Monsters / Zero vehicles. Would be useless.
Game 2: Tau. Tons of drones and three big suits. Would work only against three models in my opponents entire army (which he would pass off to drones of course) Kinda useless.
Game 3: Custodes. Bikes and foot troops. Would be useless.

So in my last tournament, this ability would work on a grand total of three models I faced, and against them it is neutered.
I would rather play the safe card and give the flyers Flayed skull, or at minimum Black heart for Vect.

Red Corsair wrote:

Experimental Creations. +1 str AND if your STR is higher than your opponents Toughness using a poison weapon (wracks, haemis and I think that is it...) you wound on a 3+.  Please forget this nonsense about venoms using this, it is designed and written with HTH in mind. Heck, even the descriptive writing at the beginning says "these monstrous test subjects are fed strength enhancing concoctions".  If this is an oversight, it will be fixed instantly or my 12 venom list will be hitting the table.

I'm not so sure that it's a mistake. It seems like a blanket buff - something for everything that covens have to offer. The +1Str is useful for Grots and Pain Engines. The poison weapon toughness comparison thing is good for wracks in haemy range fighting anything T4 or below.

If coven venoms wound on 3+, then it would be an incentive to actually take coven venoms rather than just make them Black Heart, as I tend to do.

One thing to note about the new Kabal +3 vehicle move is that it doesn't degrade after dropping a damage tier like the flayed skull obsession. Which is pretty good imho.

I am hoping that there is a trait for scourges that allow them to benefit from an obsession trait. I doubt it. But it would be nice.

The flayed skull obsession doesn't degrade either? It's just a flat 3 as well

a taste of skill, it is a good improvement for the witch cults razorwings, reaverjetbikes, they would hurt 3s with their poisoned and their incadents lances to 4s cease to be garbage, blasters vs T8 improve even more. It is too early to draw conclusions.

velaresh wrote:

a taste of skill, it is a good improvement for the witch cults razorwings, reaverjetbikes, they would hurt 3s with their poisoned and their incadents lances to 4s cease to be garbage, blasters vs T8 improve even more. It is too early to draw conclusions.

By point is, we are still taking the same things in the same ways, just with a different rule, i was hoping to change that, this makes Dis cannons even more powerful on flyers we already take.

I would have rather had an option to take those Hellions and Scourges that the box is selling.

Will these new obsessions be playable? Yes, but that doesnt help the units that are not being taken.

To be fair, we don't know yet if Hellions or Scourges might see a rules update in Phoenix Rising. We know that some units and other characters are getting updates and I'd suspect that anything in the box set is a strong candidate, especially since three of them are considered pretty weak competitively.

Burnage wrote:

To be fair, we don't know yet if Hellions or Scourges might see a rules update in Phoenix Rising. We know that some units and other characters are getting updates and I'd suspect that anything in the box set is a strong candidate, especially since three of them are considered pretty weak competitively.

for that I always try to answer 3 questions:

Is it a financial benefit for GW?
Do we have to pay extra to get these rules?
Are we Space marines?
If you answer any of them with no, we dont get anything

The new obsessions look fun but I’m not seeing anything that’s better than Flayed Skull, BH, or PoF. Although the Experimental Creation one could be interesting on Grotesques using Flesh Gauntlets and Torturers Craft to proc mortal wounds on 5+ and re-rolling all failed wounds. Still not better than PoF but could be nasty in fun games.

I mean if you look at the new marine successor chapter trait options, there are some good combinations that you can make work, but generally it seems the original chapter tactics are better.

That being said, it's way to early to make an assessment on the custom obsessions yet, we haven't seen nearly enough of them.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

I mean if you look at the new marine successor chapter trait options, there are some good combinations that you can make work, but generally it seems the original chapter tactics are better.

But they are not limited by 3 subfactions. Thats the worst part about this for me.

Skulnbonz wrote:

Test of skill- (aka +1 to wound against monsters or vehicles). Are you willing, in a tournament, to risk taking this power which if you face no monsters or tanks (or hey, look, a demon prince and 300 plaguebearers) will be totally useless? I am not.  Situationally great. Against knights, and throw in the -1 ap on a 6 to wound and now we are talking. But if you don't know your opponent beforehand, it is a pure waste.

Yes. Cults are almost useless against these types of units. I would risk facing an opponent that does not have monsters or vehicles with 10 wounds than continue to be forced to run Kabal armies with Cult added in. Test of Skill as previewed will apply to shooting attacks, as well as melee, so Reaver Bladevanes, all Splinter shots, Agonizers, Plasma Grenades and Heat Lances are going to get a boost. I can be tempted to not reply on Blasters and Blast Pistols.

False Son wrote:

Skulnbonz wrote:

Test of skill- (aka +1 to wound against monsters or vehicles). Are you willing, in a tournament, to risk taking this power which if you face no monsters or tanks (or hey, look, a demon prince and 300 plaguebearers) will be totally useless? I am not.  Situationally great. Against knights, and throw in the -1 ap on a 6 to wound and now we are talking. But if you don't know your opponent beforehand, it is a pure waste.

Yes. Cults are almost useless against these types of units. I would risk facing an opponent that does not have monsters or vehicles with 10 wounds than continue to be forced to run Kabal armies with Cult added in. Test of Skill as previewed will apply to shooting attacks, as well as melee, so Reaver Bladevanes, all Splinter shots, Agonizers, Plasma Grenades and Heat Lances are going to get a boost. I can be tempted to not reply on Blasters and Blast Pistols.

Well continuing that logic, razorwings, voidravens, reapers and the tantalus are better as that cult for vehicle hunting. Dissies on 4s against knights, dark lances on 3s, etc.

Sent from Topic'it App

amishprn86 wrote:

My point is, we are still taking the same things in the same ways, just with a different rule

Very good point.
I completely agree - new ways to play would have been great, and they missed an opportunity.

I an unsure about how to play the Toxin Grafters practically. Do I have to roll each attack separately just to be sure about the order my opponent has to take his saves in?

I also initially discarded the Berserk Fugue and Precise Killers, but then I did the math. Combined against T4 opponents, they generally outperform Strife and sometimes outperform Cursed Blade. Also, they are more useful for Reavers than Cursed Blade.
Here are my results: Wounds caused by a wych

I was thinking about this again and I really hope this custom Kabal (/Coven/Cult) nonsense isn't the entire focus of the DE rules in Psychic Awakening.

The thing for me is that this seems the worst possible thing to focus on with regard to improving our codex. Not least because we already have a good selection of traits. Maybe Poison Tongue could do with a boost but really there's already a pretty nice selection of Kabals. Same goes for Cult. Red Grief is nice for Reavers and Succubi, Strife and Cursed Blade are both good for Wyches. Only Coven is really lacking in options, since the other Covens just can't match Prophets of Flesh (but it's not looking like custom Covens will change anything there).

My point is, we already seem to have pretty good options/variety when it comes to our subfaction traits.

Furthermore, many of the units that see little play are the ones which don't benefit from any subfaction traits (Incubi, Beasts etc.). Hence, Kabal, Cult etc. could have the most powerful bonuses in the game - it still wouldn't help these units see play.

What would have been nice would be 'subfaction' traits for the Mercenary units. Or some other bonus in that vein.

However, what I'd have liked to see even more would be a table of powers for each of our HQs. Hear me out - Eldar are apparently getting a table of options for every one of their Exarchs. Would similar tables for all of 3 DE models in dire need of help really be that much to ask?

We'd still only have 3 HQs but they'd have far more options for customisation.

Could we at least wait until we've seen all the rules before we complain that we haven't received enough? We're not getting exarch powers or new psychic spells, but we might be getting more updated units than Craftworlders are.

Burnage wrote:

Could we at least wait until we've seen all the rules before we complain that we haven't received enough? We're not getting exarch powers or new psychic spells, but we might be getting more updated units than Craftworlders are.

Alright. I'll pretend for now that GW are keeping all its good rules a closely-guarded secret and are instead attempting to market Phoenix Rising to us by showcasing only the dreariest aspects of it.

Burnage wrote:

Could we at least wait until we've seen all the rules before we complain that we haven't received enough? We're not getting exarch powers or new psychic spells, but we might be getting more updated units than Craftworlders are.

I'm with you on that one Burnage. I'm excited, and the misery on here is completely unfounded right now. Who knows what other obsession options we have, and what other combinations we can make. Much less the fact that there is meant to be loads of rules content in the book, new data sheets for other units and characters, etc. Stratagems have clearly had a rework too, as Torturers Craft has been altered.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Alright. I'll pretend for now that GW are keeping all its good rules a closely-guarded secret and are instead attempting to market Phoenix Rising to us by showcasing only the dreariest aspects of it.

The rules we've seen aren't bad at all. You've just got a permanently pessimistic view of everything. We've had a small piece of the puzzle revealed, with no idea how it all fits together. But already you've written it off as a load of rubbish. It may yet prove to be, but you've no way of knowing as of this moment to be giving it the doom and gloom.

One change that hasnt been brought up is that they might have slipped in an update to the raiding part rules.... if we could break the 3 detachment limit and get decent cp for them this would lead to some crazy new list options for us. Even more after o seeing how many different warlord traita/relics ultramarines can take with their update. its unlikely but a lad can hope