Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising

tbh with the exception of the cult obsession for 3 invoun (which also needs the MODEL to be within 1 inch of an emey), im not impressed in the slightiest from what they revealed...

Burnage wrote:

Oh crap yes +3 movement is one of the Obsession components Kabals can take.

Bye Flayed Skull, it was nice knowing you.

Wait, what makes +3" movement better than +3" movement plus reroll 1s plus Ignores Cover plus extra Relic and Warlord trait options?

oh man I just read it, the individual wyches ahve to be within an inch
great

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Burnage wrote:

Oh crap yes +3 movement is one of the Obsession components Kabals can take.

Bye Flayed Skull, it was nice knowing you.

Wait, what makes +3" movement better than +3" movement plus reroll 1s plus Ignores Cover plus extra Relic and Warlord trait options?

exactly my thoughts... they will have to give us another AMAZING option to even consider this rather than flayed skull lol

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Burnage wrote:

Oh crap yes +3 movement is one of the Obsession components Kabals can take.

Bye Flayed Skull, it was nice knowing you.

Wait, what makes +3" movement better than +3" movement plus reroll 1s plus Ignores Cover plus extra Relic and Warlord trait options?

Because you can staple it to something else. The movement is what I want from Flayed Skull, reroll 1s for splinter rifles and ignore cover are niche benefits.

The stratagem and warlord trait for Flayed Skull are also near useless (to me, at least), it's only the relic I'd miss. If "successor" Kabals have a selection of relics and traits to choose from, or can freely pick from those of the four original Kabals, then I'll be very happy.

Did you read the text?

"But whether you favour Wracks, Grotesques, or both, Master Torturers is always useful, as it halves the Command Point cost of the nasty Torturer’s Craft Stratagem (+1 to wound). Couple this with Experimental Creations, and you’re talking some serious killing power."

Does it mean that they reworked the stratagem and that the obsession makes it 1 cp less?

Burnage wrote:

Because you can staple it to something else. The movement is what I want from Flayed Skull, reroll 1s for splinter rifles and ignore cover are niche benefits.

The stratagem and warlord trait for Flayed Skull are also near useless (to me, at least), it's only the relic I'd miss. If "successor" Kabals have a selection of relics and traits to choose from, or can freely pick from those of the four original Kabals, then I'll be very happy.

Each to their own, I guess. Ignores Cover is a big part of why I like FS, and I think the rerolls are useful, given our lacklustre support options.

Regardless, I imagine it will come down to what other options are available. e.g. +1 Damage on a wound roll of 6 for weapons with no AP doesn't exactly impress me. I'd rather just stick with the rerolls.


Anyway, I suppose I should be grateful that they're at least revealing rules now.

I was half-expecting today's announcement to be something to the effect of:

"Well, we've shown you the models, we've shown you the box we're selling the models in, we've shown you inside the box we're selling the models in. So join us now as we preview the assembly instructions for the Banshees! And we don't want to give anything away, but tomorrow's assembly instruction reveal will blow your minds!"

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Burnage wrote:

Because you can staple it to something else. The movement is what I want from Flayed Skull, reroll 1s for splinter rifles and ignore cover are niche benefits.

The stratagem and warlord trait for Flayed Skull are also near useless (to me, at least), it's only the relic I'd miss. If "successor" Kabals have a selection of relics and traits to choose from, or can freely pick from those of the four original Kabals, then I'll be very happy.

Each to their own, I guess. Ignores Cover is a big part of why I like FS, and I think the rerolls are useful, given our lacklustre support options.

Regardless, I imagine it will come down to what other options are available. e.g. +1 Damage on a wound roll of 6 for weapons with no AP doesn't exactly impress me. I'd rather just stick with the rerolls.

my god that bonus is abysmal...

The coven obsessions look nice... if there is at least one obsession that improves resilience (a +1 to FNP rolls would be acceptable) to take in order to somewhat mitigate the loss of the 4++ from not being PoF.

I am taking bets for the first errata.

My guess is Experimental Creations:
Replace poisoned weapon with poisoned melee weapon

Or do you really think they intended to let coven venoms wound on 3+?

And it sounds if the intention was to get the wound buff from the +1 strength also for poison weapons, but they compare the target's toughness with the attacker's toughness,  the words "strength characteristic" seem to be missing.

Koldan wrote:

I am taking bets for the first errata.

My guess is Experimental Creations:
Replace poisoned weapon with poisoned melee weapon

Or do you really think they intended to let coven venoms wound on 3+?

but poisoned shooting weapons have no str value

AzraeI wrote:

Koldan wrote:

I am taking bets for the first errata.

My guess is Experimental Creations:
Replace poisoned weapon with poisoned melee weapon

Or do you really think they intended to let coven venoms wound on 3+?

but poisoned shooting weapons have no str value

You compare the toughness characteristic of the models, not even with the strength.

"When resolving an attack made with a poisoned weapon [...] against a unit that has lower toughness characteristic than the attacking model"
No strength mentioned here.

AzraeI wrote:

Did you read the wych cult rule correctly?
wyches get a 3++ save whilst they are within an inch to an enemy unit
this implies that wyches get their 4++ saves against pistols

It will be great.
Perhaps Dodge Abilities is going to rewrite.
With this obsession Hellion and reavers win 6++ within 1".


And with Kabal Obsession Toxin Crafters we can have D2 (on wound roll of 6) even agaisnt vehicule.
But I will prefer +1 on wound roll.

Koldan wrote:

AzraeI wrote:

Koldan wrote:

I am taking bets for the first errata.

My guess is Experimental Creations:
Replace poisoned weapon with poisoned melee weapon

Or do you really think they intended to let coven venoms wound on 3+?

but poisoned shooting weapons have no str value

You compare the toughness characteristic of the models, not even with the strength.

"When resolving an attack made with a poisoned weapon [...] against a unit that has lower toughness characteristic than the attacking model"
No strength mentioned here.

this is actually hilarious...
So coven venoms and talos with slintercannons wounding everything on a 3+ ?

Darklord wrote:

And with Kabal Obsession Toxin Crafters we can have D2 on wound roll of 6 even agaisnt vehicule.  

In my local meta is a Space Wolf player who loves his storm shields alittle too much. His wulfen will be not amused.
Against armies with alot invulnerable saves, like demons or coven, this obsession can be really good.

If I might go back to a point I made earlier, custom Kabals/Cults/Covens are a nice bit of flavour. Granted, the rules are looking somewhat dubious but whatever. It's a nice option to play around with in casual/narrative games.

Same goes for Eldar having options for custom Craftworlds. Again, it's a nice bit of flavour.

In both cases, unless there happen to be some broken combinations, it's basically going to just be a sidegrade for both codices. And this is fine.

However, Eldar then get a new psychic discipline plus 6 new abilities for *every* Exarch model.

Meanwhile, Dark Eldar don't appear to be getting anything other than the custom kabal/coven/cult stuff.

AzraeI wrote:

Did you read the wych cult rule correctly?
wyches get a 3++ save whilst they are within an inch to an enemy unit
this implies that wyches get their 4++ saves against pistols

I think the +1 inv++ within 1" of an enemy will increase their inv++ to a 5++ from shooting and a 3++ in cc

colinsherlow wrote:

AzraeI wrote:

Did you read the wych cult rule correctly?
wyches get a 3++ save whilst they are within an inch to an enemy unit
this implies that wyches get their 4++ saves against pistols

I think the +1 inv++ within 1" of an enemy will increase their inv++ to a 5++ from shooting and a 3++ in cc

That was my reading also.

DevilDoll wrote:

Koldan wrote:

AzraeI wrote:

Koldan wrote:

I am taking bets for the first errata.

My guess is Experimental Creations:
Replace poisoned weapon with poisoned melee weapon

Or do you really think they intended to let coven venoms wound on 3+?

but poisoned shooting weapons have no str value

You compare the toughness characteristic of the models, not even with the strength.

"When resolving an attack made with a poisoned weapon [...] against a unit that has lower toughness characteristic than the attacking model"
No strength mentioned here.

this is actually hilarious...
So coven venoms and talos with slintercannons wounding everything on a 3+ ?

A 3+ for toughness below 5 or 6, (6 or 7 with haemonculs aura) and non vehicle and 5+ if vehicle.
I bet that is not intended, but it is actually something that should have shown up pretty fast, if they had tested it. On the other hand coven venoms gain nothing from the obsession in melee.

For the possible intention, this obsession looks like a good replacement for Urien.

I'd really like to think that this was an intended result as it basically improves the shooting ability of vehicle mounted splinter weapons whilst doing little for infantry versions. That is actually something that came up a few times when we were wishlisting for 8e.

Sadly, I suspect it's an error and will be FAQ'd out pretty sharpish.

My quick impressions- from a tournament perspective.
Toxin crafters.   MEH. DE kill by massed fire and poison. Doing 2 wounds with 1 hit on a "6" when most things targeted by poison weapons are single wound models anyway seems unnecessary.  This seems very situational, and for a tournament not worth taking.

Mobile raiders: Double MEH. Flayed skull gives this, and so much more. Can't see really ever using this.

Berserk Fugue and Precise Killers : Ugh. Bite me!
This takes up all the bonuses you can get. 2 hits (at str 3) on a 6 to hit, and -1 ap on a 6 to wound.  The wound one is decent, but in what way is this better than cursed blade? +1 str, never losing more than 1 to morale... or the blanket +1 A for strife? Again, not worth taking over the standard cults in my opinion.

Test of skill- (aka +1 to wound against monsters or vehicles). Are you willing, in a tournament, to risk taking this power which if you face no monsters or tanks (or hey, look, a demon prince and 300 plaguebearers) will be totally useless? I am not.  Situationally great. Against knights, and throw in the -1 ap on a 6 to wound and now we are talking. But if you don't know your opponent beforehand, it is a pure waste.

Acrobatic Display: The best of them so far, until you realize three things-
1. It is a 3++ based on each MODEL, not unit. So anything not in base to base with an enemy has the standard 4++
2. It takes up BOTH of your choices to do this. No other benefits allowed
3. You may think "pistols! finally we have a defence!" No, no we really dont. This is a +1 to your invul save, and against pistols we have a 6++, so we get a 5++. Yeah, I am going to have to pass on this one too.

Dark Harvest.
DANG! This one is good, but IF and only IF there is another power that grants +1 to the invul save, and based on the wych power taking both choices to do that, I would not hold your breath. The fact that this is not a 1 time power, that every time you engage, you are causing mortal wounds makes it tempting, but not tempting enough to dethrone Prophets of Flesh.

Torturer’s Craft Stratagem (+1 to wound).
Always great. Talos wound knights on 4+ without Urien now, because if you take this you can't take him anyway.  Still not better than Prophets.

Experimental Creations. +1 str AND if your STR is higher than your opponents Toughness using a poison weapon (wracks, haemis and I think that is it...) you wound on a 3+.  Please forget this nonsense about venoms using this, it is designed and written with HTH in mind. Heck, even the descriptive writing at the beginning says "these monstrous test subjects are fed strength enhancing concoctions".  If this is an oversight, it will be fixed instantly or my 12 venom list will be hitting the table.
Still not better than Prophets.


So.. in my ever so humble opinion, these rules will be for "fun" and "fluff" but won't see much tournament time unless the rules we are not seeing are better than what they put out already.

I could see Test of Skill being pretty useful on a Wych Cult Airwing detachment...

ya these are all pretty Meh abilities. But I think our expectations are all tainted by the IH supplement. Ill just hold my breath until we get a new codex and we can see our pure kabal/wych/heamy bonuses, artifacts and strats.

There could be a few interesting combos in here but i guess we need to see more.

Ok, first i HATE these for DE.

The Kabal ones just make Venoms and Flyers strong  (they already are strong now), Venoms with +3" movement and +1D, Flyers as wych with +1 wound, and no one is taking the coven b.c coven is unplayable with PoF.

Kabal already has +3" movement, that SHOULD have been for the Wyches (it would make Hellions and Reavers more playable), the +1 invul SHOULD be able to take with another trait b.c its a terrible trait alone (or it should just have been +1 to all invuls always if it was stand alone).


Over all these are bad IMO, it doesnt help the weak units and just makes the strong units stay strong, it doesnt help the units in the correct ways either.

Why does Kabal get +3" movement? They already have that, +3" to Wych fly units would have been amazing, Reavers/Hellions with +3" base, meaning a drug on Hellions for +5" movement, that is something i would have done, no Kabal, they already have flawed skull. Give us something "Different".



Edit: Coven outside of FW doesnt get a Ravager with its Keyword nor the Flyers (and i dont trust FW right now honestly), if the obsessions and keywords helps coven with Raider+Grots, like +3" movement and disembarked after moving +charge, then yes i will give up PoF, but they made no attempt to change play styles or help out units so far.

I really hope these new obsessions can be used for each other and not as a subfaction wall.

I agree, Wych cult fast attack need that extra 3". At the moment I would love for my hellions to have 17" move plus a A or S drug.

Also flayed skull has 3 good buffs for kabals. I can't see one buff being better than ignore cover AND rerolls to hit with rapid fire.

Still frustrated our mercenaries can't take obsessions too.