Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising

But did we come out of it $280 better?

It's like GW really wants you to charge things with your warrior units (though the standard warrior only has 1A) for some reason. Weird.


I'm going to guess that GW aren't planning any point adjustments to Incubi/Banshees, since they had the opportunity to shift their costs here, as they did with the Ynarri. Hopefully, we'll see some point cost adjustments on other units for CA2019.

TeenageAngst wrote:

But did we come out of it $280 better?

Probably not, that said I'll most likely pirate the books and just get Drazhar + Incubi off eBay since it's going to be a year before they're available individually. I think its just another case of GW pushing a mini game & dust gathering boxes into what should just be individual box releases and having to justify paying their rules team for coming up with the mini game.

Gizamaluke wrote:

TeenageAngst wrote:

But did we come out of it $280 better?

Probably not,  that said I'll most likely pirate the books and just get Drazhar + Incubi off eBay since it's going to be a year before they're available individually. I think its just another case of GW pushing a mini game & dust gathering boxes into what should just be individual box releases and having to justify paying their rules team for coming up with the mini game.

I was ready to drop $150 on a box game but $230 + $50 for the damn rulebook can bite me. Also if they're hell bent on making Ynnari relevant again I might just go back into the shadows of waiting for 9th edition, this game already requires me to carry a library with me just to play casually.

Cerve wrote:

In my opinion, we will see more Drukhari now.
And by the way, Ynnari Incubi now are completely crazy. I'm going to try 30 of them with Drazhar, just 10.of them are capable to kill an Imperial Knight themselves., or even a boosted IH Repulor, WITHOUT Drazhar. I don't discuss about fluff, I understand any opinion. But in a competitive way, we are getting a LOT. Seriously, if you start to analyze it deeply, you'll get that we are crazy boosted now. In many many ways.

I'm not sure what you're basing any of this on. 31 attacks, (lets assume turn 3) so that's 25.8 hits. Only 6s wound, dealing 3 damage each. They have a 4+ invulnerable. On average you will wound with 4 attacks, and they will miss two for 6 damage to a knight.

If you're adding re-rolls to wound, then you wound with about 8 attacks, again half get saved for now 12 damage.

Drazhar doesn't add too much to them, actually, since Lethal Precision is on an unmodified wound roll only. He helps them kill chaff more than heavy targets.

amishprn86 wrote:

All i care about is Yncarne is now 280pts!!!!

Agreed! I was thinking that he should be 50-60points cheaper than he was. And he did get that discount. I plan on giving him a go with 2 large blobs of razorwings flocks (especially if the chapter approved drops them a few points like I think they should). The Yncarn gives the flocks fearless and a 6+++, plus the psych power that has a 5++ bubble. He will definitely jump around later, but initially for board control it could be worth it. And I will have a Ld10 meast master there to take over after. Probably not worth it, but I am going to give it a try.

withershadow wrote:

Cerve wrote:

In my opinion, we will see more Drukhari now.
And by the way, Ynnari Incubi now are completely crazy. I'm going to try 30 of them with Drazhar, just 10.of them are capable to kill an Imperial Knight themselves., or even a boosted IH Repulor, WITHOUT Drazhar. I don't discuss about fluff, I understand any opinion. But in a competitive way, we are getting a LOT. Seriously, if you start to analyze it deeply, you'll get that we are crazy boosted now. In many many ways.

I'm not sure what you're basing any of this on. 31 attacks, (lets assume turn 3) so that's 25.8 hits. Only 6s wound, dealing 3 damage each. They have a 4+ invulnerable. On average you will wound with 4 attacks, and they will miss two for 6 damage to a knight.

If you're adding re-rolls to wound, then you wound with about 8 attacks, again half get saved for now 12 damage.

Drazhar doesn't add too much to them, actually, since Lethal Precision is on an unmodified wound roll only. He helps them kill chaff more than heavy targets.

What knight has a 4+ invul, and is usable in combat?!

I'm not sure they get a +4 invul in melee but they have some sort of relic for invuls in melee.

I can't believe Kabals don't have a single obsession that doesn't improve their shooting in any way... and 50% of their custom obsessions are essentially useless.

Soul Bound just doesn't bring all the Black Heart goodness to make it an alternative. And neither Kabals nor Cults have obsessions that improve dealing with horde armies.

But at least Coven can be played in a much more offensive fashion now. Especially Dark Technomancy sounds like a lot of fun (Liquifiers, anyone?). And Coven Venoms are about to become very scary.

Also please correct me if I am wrong, but does "Obsessive Collectors" really allow you to heal any of your units? Or just the one killing the unit?

Dark Technomancy is certainly interesting. I know Liquifiers have been mentioned but might it make Hexrifles viable? They're now wounding on 3s, doing 2 damage and causing a Mortal Wound on a 5+.

Could be. Hexrifles causing mortal wounds on 5s is pretty solid. The issue remains the best platform for then, just one weapon in a wrack unit doesn't have that much impact. Maybe if you had say 2 haemonculus with hexrifles and a few wrack units, you get a bit more impact.

Does anyone else find it hilarious (and somewhat depressing) that Covens are now better at shooting than Kabals? Coven Venoms, Raiders, Haywire, and....my god, even Liquifiers are legit threats to almost everything with Dark Technomancer and Experimental Creations. Also Electro-corrosive whips on Haemonculus’ and in Wrack squads can now do some serious work.

I find it mostly depressing. Especially when you compare toxin crafters to the heamonculus traits, it's just a joke.
I'm still not sold on liqufuiers, they are still expensive. Dark technomancy definitely improves them a lot, and it's nice that you can fit 2 in a wrack squad, but they could use a pts decrease

Yeah, it’s baffling that Kabal got close combat Obsessions and Covens got the the best shooting ones. Liquifiers are still a bit too expensive but put five of them on Grotesques in a Raider and that’s 5 d6 auto hits wounding on a 4+ or 5+ at AP -d3 flat 2 dmg. It’s expensive but in the new Space Marine meta it could be nasty.

krayd wrote:

It's like GW really wants you to charge things with your warrior units (though the standard warrior only has 1A) for some reason. Weird.

Warriors benefit from PfP's reroll charges and +1 to hit. They may not be "made" for the Fight phase, but they have enough benefits that you can put a few extra hits on a damaged unit by charging.

I see the 6 to hit auto wounding as more of a hand out to Sslyth and Ur-Ghouls. With Ur-Ghouls being in the Blackstone Fortress box, might be worth a try.

False Son wrote:

I see the 6 to hit auto wounding as more of a hand out to Sslyth and Ur-Ghouls.  With Ur-Ghouls being in the Blackstone Fortress box, might be worth a try.

Unfortunately, you can only take 3 of them, maximum, due to rule of 3. I've always thought that there should be a 'ur-ghul retinue pack' as a unit option though.

I'm pretty sure that Imperial Knights have not any Invul save on melee.
But even if that so, it is one: you can throw Incubi to the others.

I'm not saying that Incubi are the answer for IK. I'm just saying that as Ynnari they are trains.

As much as i am excited to try out the experimental technomancy covens im really REALLY sad for Kabals man they got shafted i dont know what GW was thinking with these obsessions really wtf not ONE buffs their shooting im seriously in denial right now...
Also has anyone any idea what to couple cult air wings with test of skill with? literally nothing else does anything for them the way i see it :/
Can you imagine if we had coven aircraft wow that would make them beasts... this sounds so wrong and im sad

False Son wrote:

krayd wrote:

It's like GW really wants you to charge things with your warrior units (though the standard warrior only has 1A) for some reason. Weird.

Warriors benefit from PfP's reroll charges and +1 to hit.  They may not be "made" for the Fight phase, but they have enough benefits that you can put a few extra hits on a damaged unit by charging.

Hitting on 2s makes little difference because all it does is fixes an issue they didn't have in the first place. Warriors are not bad in melee because of poor WS. They are bad because of poor strength, lack of any AP and (the real killer) 1 attack apiece.

Hmm. Against single wound models with a base 4+ save or better that are in cover, Flayed Skull Venoms still deal more damage than the new Covens ones. Covens deal more damage in most situations but it's possibly notable that they aren't superior in all of them.

Ok, for me it would be:

Kabal - -1 to leadership and 2 damage on 6s to poison weapons.

Cult - Test of Skill on Flyer Wing (+1 to wound on any 10+ wounds)

Incubi got buffed with letal precision to whole unit, which is good.

Looks like business as usual for me tbh aside from a potential test of skill airwing.

Blackheart Batallion (AoV too important, cant take Drazhar as Warlord since Alliance of Agony too important)
PoF Spearhead (Vexator too important, like being able to revive big squad of Wracks)
Test o Skill Airwing

Will try and squish some Incubi in there and drazhar instead of a 2nd Archon but probably wont be worth it unless he drops in points.

Gizamaluke wrote:

Looks like business as usual for me tbh aside from a potential test of skill airwing.

Blackheart Batallion (AoV too important, cant take Drazhar as Warlord since Alliance of Agony too important)
PoF Spearhead (Vexator too important, like being able to revive big squad of Wracks)
Test o Skill Airwing

Will try and squish some Incubi in there and drazhar instead of a 2nd Archon but probably wont be worth it unless he drops in points.

you mean you are not even curious to try out experimental technomancy?
Personaly cant wait to try out venoms wounding on 2s with 2 damage... Also wanna see how much damage i can dish out with haywire talos with the same obsession. But what i REALLY want to to take out for a spin is the tantalus which can seriously devastate anything it targets with 2s or 3s to wound and 3 damage each ^_^

I really don't think AoV is too important. I've been playing flayed skull since our codex first dropped, and I've never missed having access to that strat. I barely use the flayed skull strat/warlord trait/relic anyway. Issue for me though is Flayed Skull trait is just straight up better than any custom kabalite trait you could make, so question is do I want flayed skull, or do I want them fancy dark technomancy venoms.

I also disagree that Vexator is too important. Since the Eratta where they allowed the strat to interrupt fighting last, I've found it's less important. It's still good of course, but not absolutely need. Personally I also just think the new offensive oriented coven traits seem a lot more fun with new builds to use, PoF is of course solid but boring.

False Son wrote:

krayd wrote:

It's like GW really wants you to charge things with your warrior units (though the standard warrior only has 1A) for some reason. Weird.

Warriors benefit from PfP's reroll charges and +1 to hit.  They may not be "made" for the Fight phase, but they have enough benefits that you can put a few extra hits on a damaged unit by charging.

I see the 6 to hit auto wounding as more of a hand out to Sslyth and Ur-Ghouls.  With Ur-Ghouls being in the Blackstone Fortress box, might be worth a try.

Yeah that's incredibly situational. The only unit Kabalites might be able to take in melee is a couple guardsmen or fire warriors to finish off a unit. Doesn't matter what their ws is, don't have enough attacks and strength. Can't even consider court models, you just can't take enough of them to matter.

It's obviously not necessary - I don't usually run Black Heart either - but Vect is absolutely important for competitive play and I definitely feel its absence from my lists. Hell, I've lost track of the number of games I've played where blocking a single stratagem would have drastically altered the course of the game. The Writ is also another big, obvious draw, although I'll admit that I'm surprised at how close the new Covens Raiders come to matching them in damage output.