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 Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising

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The Strange Dark One
withershadow
Gherma
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AuthorMessage
False Son
Sybarite
False Son


Posts : 307
Join date : 2012-12-23

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 15:28

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Hitting on 2s makes little difference because all it does is fixes an issue they didn't have in the first place. Warriors are not bad in melee because of poor WS. They are bad because of poor strength, lack of any AP and (the real killer) 1 attack apiece.

I'm not saying it is good.  I am trying to get in GW's head by continuing to push this "You're a shooting subfaction that can fight in the Fight phase" mentality.  The biggest problem with this idea is that it, like so many other DE problems, seems like something out of 5th edition:

-No additional attacks for charging
-No additional attacks on the Sybarite for having a CCW/SP.
-Overwatch is a real and genuine problem.

All these rules just junk up the game without just adding something concrete like bonus attacks.  Here's two examples of what GW is pushing with this rule:

Raider charges to absorb Overwatch.
-Has variable WS based on damage taken
-Rerolls 1s to hit with Chain Snares
-6 to hit cause auto wound.

Then the Warriors charge
-Rerolls charge distance
-Adds +1 to hit
-Rolls of 6 cause auto wound

I guess you could argue that all these bonuses help against GEQ, where Splinter Rifles have diminishing returns against cheap models with low toughness and bad saves.  But, having to select this over another Kabal rule is dumb, and mechanically it just adds more to remember and slows the game down.  Bonus attack on charges is fine, and I don't know why they made so many pre conditions (charging, unmodified roll of 6).   It is even counterproductive for Llhamaens, where you want to generate the Mortal Wound on the to-wound roll.  Overall, a mess, and not much to who for it.

The Chicken Dinner Winner of all of this is still basic Wyches.  Things to consider in a round of combat include:

-What round it is (PfP) effecting multiple phases
-What Combat Drug you are using
-Up to 5 different weapon types in the same Fight Phase
-You Cult bonuses
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sweetbacon
Wych
sweetbacon


Posts : 609
Join date : 2014-02-09

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 15:39

For Dark Technomancy, does the unit take a mortal wound for EVERY hit roll of one? Or is it just a single mortal wound on the unit if you roll a one to hit? If it’s the former it suddenly doesn’t look quite as appealing on Raiders and Venoms.
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Burnage
Incubi
Burnage


Posts : 1505
Join date : 2017-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 15:44

sweetbacon wrote:
For Dark Technomancy, does the unit take a mortal wound for EVERY hit roll of one?  Or is it just a single mortal wound on the unit  if you roll a one to hit?  If it’s the former it suddenly doesn’t look quite as appealing on Raiders and Venoms.

The wording seems to be "If any unmodified wound rolls of 1 are made with the enhanced weapon, the model firing takes a mortal wound." So it's not a mortal wound for each wound roll of 1.
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sweetbacon
Wych
sweetbacon


Posts : 609
Join date : 2014-02-09

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 15:47

Whew, that’s a relief as you could potentially kill a Venom or Raider in one or two turns of shooting if your dice go cold if it was a MW for EVERY one to wound.
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Elfric
Kabalite Warrior
Elfric


Posts : 100
Join date : 2018-03-04

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 15:51

sweetbacon wrote:
Whew, that’s a relief as you could potentially kill a Venom or Raider in one or two turns of shooting if your dice go cold if it was a MW for EVERY one to wound.  

That's pretty good if you're firing a venom with splinter cannons and you roll 3 x 1, but still take just the 1 MW. While I really like this ability you're basing it on finishing a game within 2-3 turns, there's no way you aren't going to have vehicles self destructing by T4
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Lord Asvaldir
Hekatrix
Lord Asvaldir


Posts : 1157
Join date : 2015-12-06

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 15:57

Burnage wrote:
sweetbacon wrote:
For Dark Technomancy, does the unit take a mortal wound for EVERY hit roll of one?  Or is it just a single mortal wound on the unit  if you roll a one to hit?  If it’s the former it suddenly doesn’t look quite as appealing on Raiders and Venoms.

The wording seems to be "If any unmodified wound rolls of 1 are made with the enhanced weapon, the model firing takes a mortal wound." So it's not a mortal wound for each wound roll of 1.

O wow I missed that, I thought it was 1 mortal wound for each to wound roll of 1 rolled. That really makes Dark Technomancy a no brainer to me, even 6w venoms can afford to lose that wound when they are pumping out so much extra damage.
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The Strange Dark One
Wych
The Strange Dark One


Posts : 881
Join date : 2014-08-22
Location : Private subrealm of the Eldritch Skies Kabal.

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 15:59

The Coven buffs open up an interesting new Coven playstyle. With improved Venoms and Raiders I expect to see a lot more MSU to maximize the shooting. I don't expect to see less PoF but think we will see even less Wych Cults at the very least (not counting aircraft).

Black Heart is so appealing because of its versatility. I'm not sure I'd use it as a batallion, but in a BH spearhead nothing gets wasted: More durability on Ravagers, more damage with the Writ, access to AoV and Labyrinthine Cunning is still solid.

However, a "Test of Skill" Razorwing Detachment could give a Black Heart Spearhead a run for its money against targets where it counts.

Kabals are still solid and got an additional niche option (the D2 on 6 is something to remember). The real loser are traditional Wych Cult lists. There is no way any of the custom Cult obsessions improve any of the units better than our stock obsessions.

I am just baffled how GW didn't go for some obvious custom obsessions that could be useful.
Cults: 5++ for Wyches out of combat, pick any combat drugs you want, additional attacks when attacking units with more than 10 units, more movement/charge distance
Another obvious one would be: Poisoned Weapons have AP-1 on wounds of 6

And if GW is so adamant about giving Kabals melee options, they might as well give an option to make Incubi affected by obsessions. And an obsession that gives all Kabal units +1S and an additional AP-1 in melee.

Edit: Max. 1 MW a turn? Now that is extra sweet.


Last edited by The Strange Dark One on Sun Oct 13 2019, 16:00; edited 2 times in total
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sweetbacon
Wych
sweetbacon


Posts : 609
Join date : 2014-02-09

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 16:00

Absolutely. You’ll be lucky to have any Venoms left on Turn three between the three MWs you’re going to do to yourself and your opponent’s attacks.
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sweetbacon
Wych
sweetbacon


Posts : 609
Join date : 2014-02-09

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 16:04

Also, if you roll a one to wound with a Dark Technomancer Wrack unit shooting weapon do you have to allocate the MW to the model with the special weapon that shot or can it be on the unit?
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Lord Asvaldir
Hekatrix
Lord Asvaldir


Posts : 1157
Join date : 2015-12-06

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 16:08

I'm pretty sure it says the "unit" takes a mortal wound, which means you can allocate the wound to anyone. I'd have to check the wording though, and see if it says unit or model.

I still don't think the wych cult options are terrible. Are the codex ones stronger? Yes, cursed blade is incredibly strong so difficult to beat. That being said, for my casual games outside of tournaments, I'll probably be making my own cult.
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Burnage
Incubi
Burnage


Posts : 1505
Join date : 2017-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 16:09

The Strange Dark One wrote:
I am just baffled how GW didn't go for some obvious custom obsessions that could be useful.

This isn't intended to be overly harsh, but it kind of feels like whoever's working on the recent rules for the Eldar factions just... fundamentally doesn't get something about them. The Ynnari Codex and the rules in Phoenix Rising for both Craftworlders and Drukhari all seem bizarrely balanced and filled with niche benefits that aren't even useable in practice. Like, if they wanted to it's very easy for Wych Cult units to get something like WS2+ with an additional +3 to hit... but why would you ever need that?
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The Strange Dark One
Wych
The Strange Dark One


Posts : 881
Join date : 2014-08-22
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 16:31

Burnage wrote:
This isn't intended to be overly harsh, but it kind of feels like whoever's working on the recent rules for the Eldar factions just... fundamentally doesn't get something about them. The Ynnari Codex and the rules in Phoenix Rising for both Craftworlders and Drukhari all seem bizarrely balanced and filled with niche benefits that aren't even useable in practice. Like, if they wanted to it's very easy for Wych Cult units to get something like WS2+ with an additional +3 to hit... but why would you ever need that?

This thought also crossed my mind...
I cannot believe that the same people who worked on our Codex also developed these custom obsessions.
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sweetbacon
Wych
sweetbacon


Posts : 609
Join date : 2014-02-09

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 16:35

Or the same company that produced the Iron Hands book also produced the Kabal and Wych Cult custom Obsessions😂
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Lord Asvaldir
Hekatrix
Lord Asvaldir


Posts : 1157
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 16:38

Burnage wrote:
The Strange Dark One wrote:
I am just baffled how GW didn't go for some obvious custom obsessions that could be useful.

This isn't intended to be overly harsh, but it kind of feels like whoever's working on the recent rules for the Eldar factions just... fundamentally doesn't get something about them. The Ynnari Codex and the rules in Phoenix Rising for both Craftworlders and Drukhari all seem bizarrely balanced and filled with niche benefits that aren't even useable in practice. Like, if they wanted to it's very easy for Wych Cult units to get something like WS2+ with an additional +3 to hit... but why would you ever need that?

Yeah, honestly that would not surprise me. I also think some of GW's writers really want people to be more into just playing narrative campaigns and such. Nothing against narrative play, I am a fan but boy it's hard to justify taking most of the kabal traits compared to black heart/flayed skull. And if you're going to a tournament forget it, there's no competition at all. What I really like about the coven traits is that is actually presents choices and opens up some new builds, like maybe considering liquifiers. Kabal traits doesn't do that at all, I guess if you really want you could do webway raiders/disdain for lesser raiders and deep strike tons of kabalites on foot, but that's unlikely to be a competitive choice.
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Gherma
Kabalite Warrior
Gherma


Posts : 249
Join date : 2012-12-10
Location : London, UK

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 16:47

Burnage wrote:
sweetbacon wrote:
For Dark Technomancy, does the unit take a mortal wound for EVERY hit roll of one?  Or is it just a single mortal wound on the unit  if you roll a one to hit?  If it’s the former it suddenly doesn’t look quite as appealing on Raiders and Venoms.

The wording seems to be "If any unmodified wound rolls of 1 are made with the enhanced weapon, the model firing takes a mortal wound." So it's not a mortal wound for each wound roll of 1.

I read it as 1 mortal wound for every enhanced weapon, so a Venom with two cannons can take up to 2 mortal wounds.
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Burnage
Incubi
Burnage


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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 17:02

Gherma wrote:
Burnage wrote:
sweetbacon wrote:
For Dark Technomancy, does the unit take a mortal wound for EVERY hit roll of one?  Or is it just a single mortal wound on the unit  if you roll a one to hit?  If it’s the former it suddenly doesn’t look quite as appealing on Raiders and Venoms.

The wording seems to be "If any unmodified wound rolls of 1 are made with the enhanced weapon, the model firing takes a mortal wound." So it's not a mortal wound for each wound roll of 1.

I read it as 1 mortal wound for every enhanced weapon, so a Venom with two cannons can take up to 2 mortal wounds.

crap, that makes sense. So a Venom will on average suicide by turn 3 if it's always in rapid fire range.
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sweetbacon
Wych
sweetbacon


Posts : 609
Join date : 2014-02-09

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 17:07

Wouldn’t that mean you have to roll each cannon separately then since it could take one MW from each one?
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Gherma
Kabalite Warrior
Gherma


Posts : 249
Join date : 2012-12-10
Location : London, UK

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 17:09

Well, you don’t have to enhance guns every turn. Against 1W infantry is not worthy.

An interesting combination that is not being discussed enough is Dark Technomance + Obsessive Collectors. Charge your Venom, kill a model and get D3 wounds back. This let you keep enhancing during the game.
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DevilDoll
Wych
DevilDoll


Posts : 523
Join date : 2013-08-16

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 18:30

not entirely sure about that the wording is not clear enough imo
"if any unmodified wound rolls of 1 are made for attacks with an enhanced weapon, the firing model suffers 1 mortal wound after shooting with that weapon"
can any Phd in English language please clear that up for us? ^_^

if its truly 1 mw for each weapon suddenly the obsession looks like a total disappointment to me tbh... a unit of 3 talos firing haywire can (and will of course) take up to 6 mw after shooting this is BS

also it makes shooting a total pain you have to fire each haywire cannon separately, resolve wounds etc and move the next

P.S. also the firing model takes the wound so if a unit of wracks fires its the weapon bearer that dies
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Burnage
Incubi
Burnage


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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 19:33

I don't think the wording's unclear at all - every time you shoot an enhanced weapon, you risk taking a mortal wound. Shoot two? You risk taking two.

It definitely tones down the strength of Technomancy.
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Elfric
Kabalite Warrior
Elfric


Posts : 100
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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 19:38

sweetbacon wrote:
Wouldn’t that mean you have to roll each cannon separately then since it could take one MW from each one?

Just roll two different set of coloured dice, that's how I do it if I am firing a unit with different/separate weapons.
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sweetbacon
Wych
sweetbacon


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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 20:20

I knew Wracks actually being a threat in the shooting phase was too good to be true. At least now I can go back to not thinking about Liquifiers 😂
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Red Corsair
Kabalite Warrior
Red Corsair


Posts : 159
Join date : 2012-08-30
Location : Maine

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 21:10

Gherma wrote:
Well, you don’t have to enhance guns every turn. Against 1W infantry is not worthy.

An interesting combination that is not being discussed enough is Dark Technomance + Obsessive Collectors. Charge your Venom, kill a model and get D3 wounds back. This let you keep enhancing during the game.
you need to destroy a unit not simply a single model.

that trait actually makes hexrifles solid
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AzraeI
Wych
AzraeI


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Location : maybe

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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 22:13

Red Corsair wrote:
Gherma wrote:
Well, you don’t have to enhance guns every turn. Against 1W infantry is not worthy.

An interesting combination that is not being discussed enough is Dark Technomance + Obsessive Collectors. Charge your Venom, kill a model and get D3 wounds back. This let you keep enhancing during the game.
you need to destroy a unit not simply a single model.

that trait actually makes hexrifles solid

I thought lawrence on tt said you have to destroy a model
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Gherma
Kabalite Warrior
Gherma


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PostSubject: Re: Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising   Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising - Page 25 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2019, 22:24

It is model, not unit. Confirmed in many video reviews (including Scarecast).

Two guardsmen dead? +2D3 wracks. Even if FAQed to be max +1D3 per unit per phase is still quite good.
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